Clunking From NS Front Hub Suspension Area?

woodbine · 2023-09-26 15:08:02

Hello again to everyone. Not been on here for a while, as not had any problems with my 2004 Scudo 2.0 for a while. Until now.

Recently I started getting a clunking noise from the NS front wheel area on my van (108,000 miles) on any uneven road surfaces and it's getting worse. With the wheel on the ground, if I kneel facing the wheel/hub cap and grab the tyre at the top 12 o'clock position and move it in and out I can feel slight movement and I get the same clunking/rattling noise as I move it in and out.

I realise it's very difficult to diagnose with a brief description, but can anyone hazard a guess as to what the likely causes may be? Thanks in anticipation.

JohnDragonMan · 2023-09-26 19:06:56

bottom ball joint id say. if you can make it clunk by moving the wheel, try to feel around the suspension joints. you will feel one move and the other not. that joint will be the part thats knocking. be it bush or ball joint.
you can even jam a small flat blade in gaps and pry to look for movement too.

woodbine · 2023-09-27 00:22:11

JohnDragonMan wrote:

bottom ball joint id say. if you can make it clunk by moving the wheel, try to feel around the suspension joints. you will feel one move and the other not. that joint will be the part thats knocking. be it bush or ball joint.
you can even jam a small flat blade in gaps and pry to look for movement too.

Thanks John. That was what I was leaning towards. The two small bushes at the bottom of the anti-roll bar links are a bit perished, but not too bad - so thinking they're not the problem.

Presumably it's a new wishbone as the ball joints arent replaceable? Also, the bottom of the hub assembly spins on the bottom ball joint, but don't think there is a top ball joint. What does the upper part of the hub spin on - is there anything in there that wears and needs to be replaced?

Appreciate your advice, as you've helped me in the past and your videos have been really useful too.

JohnDragonMan · 2023-09-27 22:15:05

the whole strut spins, the pivot is the strut top bearing. they are usually pretty tough. when i took mine all apart i made sure to grease all of them up. you do have to use a spring compressor to access that though as you have to take the strut top plate off to get to the roller bearing plate disc thing. just squirt some spray grease into it, it will be fine.
if you do take the strut out (as it would only be a few extra bolts to do from the job of replacing the bottom wishbone) i recommend wire brushing and painting in the strut top mounting well. it can corrode quite bad in there. >>See here<<

the ball joints are not replaceable sadly. the whole arm has to be changed. make sure you buy the ones that cost a little more than they should.. i have bought the cheap ones during lockdown and fit them myself. they lasted 6k miles then started knocking. so they were replaced with the more expensive ones. a taxi repair place advised me on that tip.

i am quite glad that folk find my psychotic ramblings useful.. and then theres the vehicle repair stuff too i suppose..

kenbw2 · 2023-09-27 23:39:57

I had this after having a wishbone replaced. Clunks when turning the wheel at low speed, or if I went over a kerb or something. I perodically asked them why it makes that noise they kept shrugging it off.

Fast forward probably a year or two, I'm told my bottom ball joint is dangerously loose. Great.

Wishbone replaced, and it's gone.

woodbine · 2023-09-28 19:56:46

Thanks again to both of you. I'll have a look at the top of the strut re bearings and rust up in the turret. I thought it would be good idea to get better quality wishbone as had heard that cheap Chinky stuff is made of toffee and doesn't last. Lemforder and Meyle seem to be the quality German ones as well as Monroe. About 70 quid from places like Autodoc.

Going to do the anti roll links while I'm in there. Not sure if I will just do the bottom 2 bushes for now as saw a video on YT of someone doing the same links on a Ducato. The top bush where it is bolted to end of AR bar seemed to have welded itself on with rust. Not the nut, it seemed to be the metal sleeve inside the bush that was keeping the link attached. He had to take the whole AR bar out and spend a fair amount of time with grinder and saw cutting the link off AR bar. Are they usually this bad?

Got to put a new CV outer boot on too. Garage fitted a new boot 2 years ago and for some reason it has shed two bigger/outer clips. I put a third one on, the clip is still there and I crimped it on really tight, but the boot is pulling out from under the clip and seeping grease out.

Comparing the problem cv boot to others on van. it seems quite rigid plastic, wheras the others seem like softer rubber. I think as it's stiffer material it doesn't strectch so well under use and pulls out from under the clip instead. Anyone had experience of this and better/softer boot I can buy?

Last edited by woodbine (2023-09-28 19:59:10)

AlvyLad · 2023-09-30 13:12:35

Just to add my $0.02ct
as per everyone talking over the quality... because, just had to order the new one, as per garage "pre-check" for a forthcoming MOT (and obviously now need be replaced one)

From the start: about 3 years ago, got one from EuroCarParts, that was near £80, but not the £180 one, now it's been making little bit of clinking-clanking already
Asked mechanic to have quick browse over, as MOT's are booked 2 weeks in advance and only by luck managed to find a spot for Wed... he just sat in the van to get on to ramp- CLANK!- yeap, he goes- need that... So, bit of browse around and EurCP's don't even have one in stock, GSF's one is £79, whilst all sorts on evilBay are starting from £35 or pair for £60, including "well written about make" ones.
Bit of a smooth chatting to a mechanic, he'll replace it on Tue and what to get, I went with what you guys recommended, ordered one for £50.10 inc guaranteed delivery before Tue PM, so, I swear, it's my Hollywood looks, but everything might, just fit in a place.
https://www.onlineautomotive.co.uk/chea … de/FASS648
This (FAI wishbone) should be fitted, next day (Wed) my old slag of a van get MOT (fingers crossed) and I shall be happy, as Larry

Thanks for clearing up about wishbone quality and makes, as indeed those chinesium ones end up costing double, tipple or even more in a long run

woodbine · 2023-10-01 01:22:35

AlvyLad wrote:

Just to add my $0.02ct
as per everyone talking over the quality... because, just had to order the new one, as per garage "pre-check" for a forthcoming MOT (and obviously now need be replaced one)
From the start: about 3 years ago, got one from EuroCarParts, that was near £80, but not the £180 one, now it's been making little bit of clinking-clanking already
Asked mechanic to have quick browse over, as MOT's are booked 2 weeks in advance and only by luck managed to find a spot for Wed... he just sat in the van to get on to ramp- CLANK!- yeap, he goes- need that... So, bit of browse around and EurCP's don't even have one in stock, GSF's one is £79, whilst all sorts on evilBay are starting from £35 or pair for £60, including "well written about make" ones.
Bit of a smooth chatting to a mechanic, he'll replace it on Tue and what to get, I went with what you guys recommended, ordered one for £50.10 inc guaranteed delivery before Tue PM, so, I swear, it's my Hollywood looks, but everything might, just fit in a place.
https://www.onlineautomotive.co.uk/chea … de/FASS648
This (FAI wishbone) should be fitted, next day (Wed) my old slag of a van get MOT (fingers crossed) and I shall be happy, as Larry
Thanks for clearing up about wishbone quality and makes, as indeed those chinesium ones end up costing double, tipple or even more in a long run

Thanks for the info. I looked at Autodoc (anyone know if they're any good/reliable?), and Monroe, Meyle wishbomes are about £70 and Lemforder are around £98.

woodbine · 2023-10-01 01:26:35

I'm going to end up virtually rebuilding the suspension in the nearside front corner. Doing wishbone, outer cv boot, anti-roll links. Did the main anti roll rubbers nearer the centre of the AR bar last week. Don't think there's much left after that.

Will be undoing lots of bolts - but have no idea for any torques (think the track rod is 50 nm???). If I post up a list of torques I need, can anyone help with some numbers please? No ferkin Haynes available for these! sad

Got all the kit on order and a Laser thin wall 36mm hub nut socket. Hope that's the one I need.

Last edited by woodbine (2023-10-01 01:28:36)

AlvyLad · 2023-10-01 15:15:26

woodbine wrote:

AlvyLad wrote:
Thanks for clearing up about wishbone quality and makes, as indeed those chinesium ones end up costing double, tipple or even more in a long run
Thanks for the info. I looked at Autodoc (anyone know if they're any good/reliable?), and Monroe, Meyle wishbomes are about £70 and Lemforder are around £98.

Not THAT much of an components quality expert to be clear on every brand, especially, when often them automotive parts are made to order by the same factories and assembled with different components in a different packaging - "name"- brand on them.
All I've learned is that the chinesium ones are rubbish, and I knew "FAI" is the same in suspension as "Valeo" in some electric components, used as OEM components by all Citroen, Fiat, Peugeot assembly makers.
https://faiauto.com/ bit like Bosch, but smaller, in the other words.

AlvyLad · 2023-10-01 15:42:13

woodbine wrote:

I'm going to end up virtually rebuilding the suspension in the nearside front corner. Doing wishbone, outer cv boot, anti-roll links. Did the main anti roll rubbers nearer the centre of the AR bar last week. Don't think there's much left after that.

Lucky to have facilities, brave man- round off applause!

woodbine wrote:

Will be undoing lots of bolts - but have no idea for any torques (think the track rod is 50 nm???). If I post up a list of torques I need, can anyone help with some numbers please? No ferkin Haynes available for these!

(Not, that I'd undertake it own self) one of the mechanics said it (and I agreed on just a one wishbone replacement is going to take an hour, maybe an hour and a half... this morning had a chat with one, that simply can't do it in (other major brand dealership garage he works at) it should take 15 minutes, but he would've priced for half an hour... duh!
ANW
On fitting new suspension or brakes components it's 3 forwards, 2 back rule where tension matters. Got to fit, overtighten, release, and tighten to exact tension (Nm) number is needed.
(Left a message for the matey (question), hope he'll come back to me with exact numbers)

woodbine wrote:

Got all the kit on order and a Laser thin wall 36mm hub nut socket. Hope that's the one I need.

Not that I would do it myself, (got plenty of excuses), but would love a step by step photo explanation off the work once you are done with?

ANW good luck and enjoy a cold one outside today- bloody perfect weather for it, and yes, I'll have one or a couple in a minute
EDITED:
The wishbone: " don't remember, don't matter, don't care whatever the gun is set to"... "the hub bearing is crucial 180 though"... that'd be ft/lb in imperial I'm fairly sure

Last edited by AlvyLad (2023-10-01 16:09:57)

woodbine · 2023-10-02 13:10:18

Thanks for the info, AlvyLad, really useful.

I'm not quite sure what's going on with this. Got someone to lever upwards under the tyre with both wheels off the ground. Couldn't see, feel or hear anything. But this is usually the case with either the problem wheel or both wheels off the ground - the problem disappears.

With both wheels on the ground I got him to hold the tyre at 12 o'clock and rock it inwards and outwards. The movement and knocking is obvious, but not low down where the bottom ball joint is. And it's not the AR bar link either. Feels like it's coming somewhere from the hub area but I can't pinpoint. Checked the two bolts holding bottom of strut to hub are tight - and they were.

I can get the same movement/rattle if grab the lowest coils of the spring above wheel and move it in towards engine then outwards. Can feel the knocking near the bottom of strut near hub rather than top of it.

If not the lower ball joint, what else could it be? Wheel bearing? My experience of these is the whine or rumble. Can bad bearing clunk when driving along and cause rattling/movement when moving wheel in and out at top by wheel?

What other things are possible? CV joint?

AlvyLad · 2023-10-02 18:55:45

woodbine wrote:

Thanks for the info, AlvyLad, really useful.
I'm not quite sure what's going on with this. Got someone to lever upwards under the tyre with both wheels off the ground. Couldn't see, feel or hear anything. But this is usually the case with either the problem wheel or both wheels off the ground - the problem disappears.
With both wheels on the ground I got him to hold the tyre at 12 o'clock and rock it inwards and outwards. The movement and knocking is obvious, but not low down where the bottom ball joint is. And it's not the AR bar link either. Feels like it's coming somewhere from the hub area but I can't pinpoint. Checked the two bolts holding bottom of strut to hub are tight - and they were.
I can get the same movement/rattle if grab the lowest coils of the spring above wheel and move it in towards engine then outwards. Can feel the knocking near the bottom of strut near hub rather than top of it.
If not the lower ball joint, what else could it be? Wheel bearing? My experience of these is the whine or rumble. Can bad bearing clunk when driving along and cause rattling/movement when moving wheel in and out at top by wheel?
What other things are possible? CV joint?

I'm 99% sure, as I've gone through the same testing first time round and now it is identical clanking. Not all the times, but moving onwards, sometimes reversing or over some humps- sometimes clank! whilst trying to investigate, I've gone with similar exercises and on a second mechanic inspection- yep- that's your wishbone and no, you can't replace just a bushing, got to replace whole wishbone.
Once done, had to get wheel alignment... thinking of which, if it'll arrive here tomorrow and mechanic is going to replace it, will it be wonky for MOT on Wed?...
I digress, without seeing it, it is identical to my issue (had, solved and now again), whilst replacing more bits might be right thing to do, in case of anymore play else, like bearings etc it still is 99% surely the main ball bush you get that main play- clank out of even if it doesn't appear that way wiggling all the bits on it

woodbine · 2023-10-03 00:11:45

Not an easy one this, but I think I have a diagnosis. Took it to my usual MOT centre and they put it on the MOT ramps and gave the front wheels a workout with the shaker. Then lots of looking, rattling wheel/spring, levering, look under bonnet. Then more levering and another go on the shaker. Definitely not ball joint (no movement in it), AR bar or bushes. Was in there 20 mins.

Said it's feels like it's high up, so most likely top strut mount. I realise it's a difficult thing to positively identify, due to location/access. Think it was a process of elimination.

If the strut mount, is it ok to drive and do they fail, causing death and destruction? Or just do it ASAP?

What do I replace? Just the bearing, or the big metal plate that holds it all together - or both?

FYI - the spring on strut is 18 months old, but rest of strut is original - 19 years old/108,000 miles.

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ROLLING BEARING, SUSPENSION STRUT SUPPORT MOUNTING LEMFÖRDER 31419 01 FRONT AXLE 4047437316973 | eBay
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Top Strut Mounting Front Left FOR SCUDO 10->ON CHOICE2/2 2.0 Diesel 270 272 | eBay
Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Top Strut Mounting Front Left FOR SCUDO 10->ON CHOICE2/2 2.0 Diesel 270 272 at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products.
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JohnDragonMan · 2023-10-03 19:01:14

you can replace the whole top end of the strut.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/314840749756 … R4qQheveYg

wow thats a long link.. sorry

but that comes with the bearing and it fits 1995 to 2007 vans. mk1 and mk2 (the mk1 facelift like mine)

AlvyLad · 2023-10-04 18:43:46

Really have to post in detail, but got too many balls in the air as to say
1- MOT failed on many things, but importantly (relevant to this issue of play from the bottom-middle of a wheel hub) is in fact both wishbone pin and actual hub wear
2- not sure what am I doing with the van ( 1 ) but it turns out, that 3-4 years ago replaced, but not well enough tightened hub/pin nut re-tightenned brought back the same problem, it's the wear more on the hub, than the pin on a wishbone, that's BAD

3- I'm after a hub RHS (driver - off-side), by the looks of it, so should be you LHS (near side, passenger)

AlvyLad · 2023-10-05 13:01:35

Keep us posted, how are you getting on?
me?- struggling to find decent SH hub (with bearings etc), load of (unknown mileage or bearing condition or some are on sale with broken studs inside)

Anyone aware up to what year Scudo and especially Expert (Peugeot) those stubs/hubs were identical?
Were any of them different w ABS or without?
https://eper.fiatforum.com/en/Drawings/ … ubSubGroup
7 1334488080 PILLAR RH
01

Last edited by AlvyLad (2023-10-05 13:07:43)

Mixerfistit · 2023-10-05 23:40:18

I've got creaking and clunking too, both arms getting replaced next week along with the droplinks.

I thought the creaking was high up and central but after my mech oiled the drop link bushes as a fault finding measure the creaking seems to have stopped. Just the clunks now.. Until next week hopefully

AlvyLad · 2023-10-06 09:43:50

Mixerfistit wrote:

I've got creaking and clunking too, both arms getting replaced next week along with the droplinks.
I thought the creaking was high up and central but after my mech oiled the drop link bushes as a fault finding measure the creaking seems to have stopped. Just the clunks now.. Until next week hopefully

Same'ish with me, next week hub, tires and other bits- off to mechanic again, but importantly (again) once he had replaced wishbone, van drives like crazy swearing-shunting from one side to other with minimal steering- wheel alignment must be off again by a degree or even couple, as it never has been that bad before.
So, once all the work done, prior to MOT retest- wheel alignment is a must... more or less like the any other times, whenever anything done on suspension, might not seem like necessity but when (really old) tires just after 50 miles start cracking- it's a sign by itself.

woodbine · 2023-10-09 00:20:04

AlvyLad wrote:

Keep us posted, how are you getting on?

Things progressing with couple of hitches, so far. The tie rod BJ is really in there. Tried tapping on the threaded part with the nut near end of thread to protect the it. Then tried banging the side of the casting where the BJ sits in to shock it out, but no joy, don't want to use more farce otherwise I'll be shopping for a new track rod end. Off to Machine Mart tomorrow to get a decent BJ seperator.

The lower BJ nut on it's pinch bolt was slightly chewed, so the 16mm socket wouldn't bite. Managed to get a 5/8 socket to grip it and undo - it was tight. Poss been wanged up with air wrenches before, doing the nut's flats no good. The Fiat nut seems unobtainium, so will put it back on for now and source a proper high tensile nut and bolt to replace.

My discoveries -

Scudo driveshafts obviously have no clips or means of retention in the diff, as they slide out really easily. Typical - something you don't want to come out comes out when you don't want it to. Made the mistake of leaving the hub nut loose and on the end of it's thread when I popped the lower BJ out. This tugged on the driveshaft slightly and resulted in a bit of an oily mess on the floor. :oops: That's another trip to get some gearbox oil. Unfortunately no level hole on these, so will have to drain and refill because what came out wasn't measured.

A lower BJ can be in too far. I just assumed when you pop the BJ back in the pinch hole in bottom of hub it would go in far enough and stop. Then wondered why the pinch bolt wouldn't go in. Finally realised I needed to lever wishbone down a few mms and the bolt slipped in nicely.

woodbine · 2023-10-29 17:11:30

Oddly, it looks like the shock maybe the culprit of my clunking noises. No wonder the MOT garage struggled to diagnose and told me most likely top mount bearing. (Anyone want to buy a new SKF mount bearing? )

New one on me. Got strut out and took it apart. With the shock, I can find a bit of free play where the shaft enters main body and if I waggle the end of the shaft I get some rattling. This rattling and movement is similar to when I grabbed the top of the tyre and and rattled it inwards towards engine and outwards towards me - before I took it all apart. Anyone had a bad shock that caused rattling/clunking when driving along?

Also, I can move the shaft in and out of the body with hardly any resistance, so I'm thinking the shock is junk.

My question - are the original shocks on my 2004 Scudo oil or gas? I would prefer new oil ones as I'm not looking for performance. What are best, oil or gas? Any recommended makes?

Suppose I'll also have to replace the shock on the other side soon after as well. sad

Last edited by woodbine (2023-10-29 17:14:27)

AlvyLad · 2023-10-29 18:08:57

woodbine wrote:

Oddly, it looks like the shock maybe the culprit of my clunking noises. No wonder the MOT garage struggled to diagnose and told me most likely top mount bearing. (Anyone want to buy a new SKF mount bearing? )
New one on me. Got strut out and took it apart. With the shock, I can find a bit of free play where the shaft enters main body and if I waggle the end of the shaft I get some rattling. This rattling and movement is similar to when I grabbed the top of the tyre and and rattled it inwards towards engine and outwards towards me - before I took it all apart. Anyone had a bad shock that caused rattling/clunking when driving along?
Also, I can move the shaft in and out of the body with hardly any resistance, so I'm thinking the shock is junk.
My question - are the original shocks on my 2004 Scudo oil or gas? I would prefer new oil ones as I'm not looking for performance. What are best, oil or gas? Any recommended makes?
Suppose I'll also have to replace the shock on the other side soon after as well.

Shocks I know a bit from experience. 1- do not buy performance ones, ideally try to find old stock OEM's; 2- considering the age- most likely (gas) AND they should be two way different resistance ones, meaning they work on the way of pull out as speed reducing device, also on compression, they offer progressive resistance too as to say, van hits a speed hump it sends significant jolt up, not just spring... hence ginormous tyres and yes 3- correct, you are ought to change them in pairs

Bit of a play- shouldn't be a problem, brand new, they have a tiny bit of it, even HAGON I had for my BMW did felt "unsure about" before fitted, however once fitted (lowered suspension by 30mm with stiffer springs)- it felt SMOOTHER ride.... sad ANW, best of luck with those.
NK is decent make for absorbers AFAIK https://onlineautomotive.co.uk/car-part … 3400/1/568 I'd call them first to 100% sure if they'll fit, but at ~£70 each...

As it comes to your van passing MOT, still having a play (or clanking) - I'm not much more of an advice, except to advise you to double-triple check, what I've experienced and seen to have had it identified for sure (Garage mechanic that is) worn out mounting bolt recess where the Ball Joint get's tightened in to.

In your searches, trials and Saga's, do you mind to keep an eye for a https://dispatchexpertscudo.org.uk/foru … hp?id=1821 Front RHS (Driver) Off Side Hub-Mount for an ABS vehicle? thanks!

Last edited by AlvyLad (2023-10-29 18:50:24)

woodbine · 2023-10-29 19:27:05

Thanks for your reply, Alvy. So you're recommending gas. Would be interested to know what the original shocks would have been. Oil or gas?

Main choices seem to be Monroe oil and Sachs gas. Much the same price. Don't know what the advantages of either is. Unfortunately, not come across any old OEMs yet.

What have others fitted on their vans, and what were your experiences?

EDIT>>> Reading up on the subject, an article stated that with oil shocks, the shaft will stay in if you push it into the body, but gas shocks will come back out. Does this sound right? Going by my shock, the shaft does come back out on it's own - so more than likely, they're gas shocks.

https://www.coolairvw.co.uk/guides/robs … ers-guide/

Last edited by woodbine (2023-10-29 19:34:44)

AlvyLad · 2023-10-29 19:35:42

original, I'd be inclined to believe Monroe oil
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/363840867276 whilst it's £94+ each, still "peanuts" compared to my Hagon ones for a beemar ~£230 each

woodbine wrote:

EDIT>>> Reading up on the subject, an article stated that with oil shocks, the shaft will stay in if you push it into the body, but gas shocks will come back out. Does this sound right? Going by my shock, the shaft does come back out on it's own - so more than likely, they're gas shocks.
https://www.coolairvw.co.uk/guides/robs … ers-guide/

THAT is an "issue" on my BMW, (likely the same on the van, because of the massive tires), however (again mechanic 'splaining) the Hagons I had were completely different load values etc- meaning it felt as if car was absorbing speed humps lot easier on compression, than originals, be it 30mm shorter...

Last edited by AlvyLad (2023-10-29 19:47:54)

woodbine · 2023-10-30 12:48:49

woodbine wrote:

Thanks for your reply, Alvy. So you're recommending gas. Would be interested to know what the original shocks would have been. Oil or gas?

Cleaned off the oil and grime on the sticker on old shock and it says 'Sachs' and 'contains nitrogen'. So a new Sachs gas shock it is, just as the manufacturers intended. Then another one for other side when I get more time. sad

The correct Sachs OE front shock model nos. are -

Sachs 310 765 for left/nearside

Sachs 310 764 for right/off side

Hope this info helps someone in the future.

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#1 2023-09-26 15:08:02

Clunking From NS Front Hub Suspension Area?

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