Virgin post-oil rev-solution

badrobot · 2020-02-17 02:56:18

First timer here. Hello all,

How as it taken me so long to find my way here. Looking through it tonight, it seems so full of interesting stuff. Learned a lot already.

Having already owned two mk1s now, both 1.9d, Got the bug!! I would like to ask some advise about a potential purchase of a possible 3rd. with a view to run SVO. Its a 2006 1.9td 200,000 miles, 12 mnths MOT, with no discernable issues. (£995)

I would like to ask if anyone could shed some light on the turbo element, (Is turbo version still bullet proof?) as oppose to 2.0HDI etc, and how does this relate to running SVO? subject to Lucas Vs Bosch fuel pump issue-Bosch. Being a turbo version is it likely to have a bosch already and how does one tell the difference?

I am not 'so' new to these, I know these 1.9s are bullet proof etc, but could use the extra oomph with td version. My last one was a Cit. with 280,000 miles on, I fitted swivel seats, bed etc had loads of fun, and is still going today. Though due to inheriting a Tourneo Connect, I sold Dispatch. Sadly the Connect just failed MOT on both sills 'after' £400 worth advisories work done, test station won't pass now, and mechanic says he apparently got VOSA involved, and have been unable to reach him for the last cpl o wks, been 6wks now in total grrr... (I digress)

Does anyone have any experience of the success of this conversion/applicability/best way to go about conversion to SVO. How much is it likely to source/switch pump. Anyone know of anyone near me who does them often etc. And what might be involved/cost etc. Hopefully it already has a Bosch one fitted. As far as I am aware you're allowed to run a 2500ltrs SVO before tax?

Any help, pointers, advice welcome.

Thanks, Rob

Last edited by badrobot (2020-02-17 03:00:04)

Tiree · 2020-02-17 16:49:07

I think Kenbw2 is the only 1.9td user I can think of .. no doubt he'll be along shortly!

Moving this into the 1996 - 2006 Vans forum as I think it belongs there .. and Ken more likely to see it there I guess!

Tiree · 2020-02-17 16:51:05

Also - welcome!

OAT · 2020-02-17 16:57:27

Hello and welcome Rob.
We don't have as many later van owners here so direct experience of veg oil is mostly in earlier models. You could be the pioneer although it may be that due to modern sensors and monitoring it might well require extra consideration.

Quite a few of us use veg oil to varying degrees in older vans though and if Bosch pumps are fitted they don't seem to be any particular problems. (long term may or may not be a different matter)

My own van is a 98 TD and I tend to run a mix varying from 50 - 80% added to the tank whenever I find it at a good price. (70p/l at Tesco just now.) I suspect it would run fine at 100% but I am cautious re cold starts. kenb has a simple, manually operated secondary tank to provide neat derv for starting on his.

Last edited by OAT (2020-02-17 17:00:14)

Tiree · 2020-02-17 16:59:25

OAT wrote:

My own van is a 98 TD

Oops sorry OAT - forgot yours was a TD too!

OAT · 2020-02-17 17:06:22

badrobot wrote:

As far as I am aware you're allowed to run a 2500ltrs SVO before tax?

I believe there is apparently such a limit but can't see how they could ever police it.

EDIT

On trying to look this up I find as much miss-information as fact. Par for the course on the net!

This seems to be the root of the issue though :-

2.3 Fuel that can be legally used in petrol or diesel engine road vehicles
Apart from the circumstances described in this paragraph you must always use duty paid fuel. This would normally be petrol or diesel sold as road fuel from a fuel retailers.
Certain biodiesel and fuel substitute producers and users, who meet the definition of ‘exempt producers’, can use limited amounts of fuel upon which duty has not been paid. For more details see section 4 of Notice 179E Biofuels and other fuel substitutes.
Biofuels and fuel substitutes are alternative fuels, they include:
biodiesel
bioethanol
refuse-derived fuel
non-fossil methane
vegetable oil
propane
other biomass sources
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/fuels-for-u … -notice-75

After a speed read I see there are many exceptions and reductions in duty for various circumstances but can't see anything on exemption for a specified quantity.

Anyone got a reliable reference to info on limited use of veg oil?

Last edited by OAT (2020-02-17 17:21:39)

badrobot · 2020-02-17 19:40:03

Tiree wrote:

I think Kenbw2 is the only 1.9td user I can think of .. no doubt he'll be along shortly!
Moving this into the 1996 - 2006 Vans forum as I think it belongs there .. and Ken more likely to see it there I guess!

Oops thanks for steering me in the right direction Tiree, and for the welcome.

badrobot · 2020-02-17 19:53:38

OAT wrote:

badrobot wrote:
As far as I am aware you're allowed to run a 2500ltrs SVO before tax?
I believe there is apparently such a limit but can't see how they could ever police it.
EDIT
On trying to look this up I find as much miss-information as fact. Par for the course on the net!
This seems to be the root of the issue though :-
2.3 Fuel that can be legally used in petrol or diesel engine road vehicles
Apart from the circumstances described in this paragraph you must always use duty paid fuel. This would normally be petrol or diesel sold as road fuel from a fuel retailers.
Certain biodiesel and fuel substitute producers and users, who meet the definition of ‘exempt producers’, can use limited amounts of fuel upon which duty has not been paid. For more details see section 4 of Notice 179E Biofuels and other fuel substitutes.
Biofuels and fuel substitutes are alternative fuels, they include:
biodiesel
bioethanol
refuse-derived fuel
non-fossil methane
vegetable oil
propane
other biomass sources
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/fuels-for-u … -notice-75
After a speed read I see there are many exceptions and reductions in duty for various circumstances but can't see anything on exemption for a specified quantity.
Anyone got a reliable reference to info on limited use of veg oil?

Hi Oat, Yeh not sure where I read this.... "I believe there is apparently such a limit but can't see how they could ever police it." maybe on here. Thanks for the link, trying to deconstruct, make sense of Gov info. Could be a while, lol.

"You could be the pioneer although it may be that due to modern sensors and monitoring it might well require extra consideration."
Are you aware of what year said sensors start from, not averse to getting an older model. I would like to be safer than sorry. Just discovered that vehicle in question was a 2.0 hd not 1.9td doh! Is there anywhere else other than ebay/gumtree/FB Marketplace worth trying to pick a 1.9td up?

Also thanks for the welcome

Last edited by badrobot (2020-02-17 19:57:14)

vaz2121 · 2020-02-18 00:38:28

You are correct on the 2500ltr guide lines and declaration purposes.......
Even at 35mpg your still going to cover about 19,000 plus miles a year ...........
So I'd think most of us should be OK with that........

Something tells me the 1.9TD Change over to 2.0HDI would be about the turn of the Millenium (1998, 99, 2000) ...............
Our 306 is a DW8 on a 2000 "W"plate and a friend had a 1999 on a "T" plate Scudo which also was a DW8............
I think these {Scudo anyway} could be relatively early reg with DW8 and out the door ..........

The 306 and early berlingo's (Which I beleive are on 306 estate floor pans) from memorey had a Bosch pump on a DW8..........
All DW8/B's and these vans (scudo, Dispatch and Jumpy, Expert) came fitted with a Lucus/Delphi pump on a DW8...........

I Could be just as easily wrong though.........

http://www.vegoilmotoring.com/eng/legal-stuff

Bosch Pump

Lucus/Delphi Pump

The Bosch pump has got like a little shock absorber {Damper} on the side if it's still there .........

If you can see OK...........

kenbw2 · 2020-02-18 02:16:22

I'd echo all of the things said by OAT and vaz2121 on here. I too go off the 2500 litres per year, but that's a hell of a lot of miles. I know I'll never hit that.

The first thing I'm not clear on is which engine you have - you say you have a 2006 1.9TD? But as far as I know the bulletproof XUD9 engines stopped in 1999/2000. This engine came in 1.9D and 1.9TD variants.

So pre-1999/2000:

- 1.9D N/A 1905cc XUD9 - bulletproof
- 1.9TD Turbo 1905cc XUD9 - bulletproof

Post-1999/2000

- 1.9D N/A 1868cc DW8 - ridiculously simple and bulletproof
- This became the DW8B after ~2002 with some additional computer timing adjustment
- 2.0 HDi 1997cc turbocharged
- 1.6 HDi 1,560 cc turbocharged (with unreliable turbos I gather)

The DW8 will run on veg with the Bosch pump. The HDIs not so much although Firemoth has done it.

My DW8 that I had was a Lucas-inflicted engine that I had swapped to Bosch exactly or veg running. I ran many happy miles on that before selling it on in favour of my XUD9 1.9TD that I run now.

My findings with the DW8 were that it ran perfectly well on 100% veg when warm. If it was a cold start below 10 dgeress it definitely beenfitted from having some diesel in there. I went down to 50% at about 0 degress. I was happy to run 100% 10 degrees and above. Once you're up and running though and the engine was warm it doesn't matter what the outside temp is.

Here's my engine with Lucas

And with Bosch

Upshot is, if it's a 1.9 of some form it will definitely run on at least 50% veg. If it's got a Bosch pump, it'll run on 100%.

Last edited by kenbw2 (2020-02-18 02:26:05)

vaz2121 · 2020-02-18 12:47:45

kenbw2 wrote:

I'd echo all of the things said by OAT and vaz2121 on here. I too go off the 2500 litres per year, but that's a hell of a lot of miles. I know I'll never hit that.
The first thing I'm not clear on is which engine you have - you say you have a 2006 1.9TD? But as far as I know the bulletproof XUD9 engines stopped in 1999/2000. This engine came in 1.9D and 1.9TD variants.
So pre-1999/2000:
- 1.9D N/A 1905cc XUD9 - bulletproof
- 1.9TD Turbo 1905cc XUD9 - bulletproof
Post-1999/2000
- 1.9D N/A 1868cc DW8 - ridiculously simple and bulletproof
- This became the DW8B after ~2002 with some additional computer timing adjustment
- 2.0 HDi 1997cc turbocharged
- 1.6 HDi 1,560 cc turbocharged (with unreliable turbos I gather)
The DW8 will run on veg with the Bosch pump. The HDIs not so much although Firemoth has done it.

My DW8 that I had was a Lucas-inflicted engine that I had swapped to Bosch exactly or veg running. I ran many happy miles on that before selling it on in favour of my XUD9 1.9TD that I run now.
My findings with the DW8 were that it ran perfectly well on 100% veg when warm. If it was a cold start below 10 dgeress it definitely beenfitted from having some diesel in there. I went down to 50% at about 0 degress. I was happy to run 100% 10 degrees and above. Once you're up and running though and the engine was warm it doesn't matter what the outside temp is.
Here's my engine with Lucas
https://i.imgur.com/Xuz99gD.jpg
And with Bosch
https://i.imgur.com/Sv0anmT.jpg
Upshot is, if it's a 1.9 of some form it will definitely run on at least 50% veg. If it's got a Bosch pump, it'll run on 100%.

What he said.........

And that's a much clearer Bosch pump photo than I put up

badrobot · 2020-02-18 15:51:27

Wow great resources and pics vaz2121/Kenbw2. Very useful. Thanks All

"The first thing I'm not clear on is which engine you have - you say you have a 2006 1.9TD? But as far as I know the bulletproof XUD9 engines stopped in 1999/2000. This engine came in 1.9D and 1.9TD variants.

So pre-1999/2000:

- 1.9D N/A 1905cc XUD9 - bulletproof
- 1.9TD Turbo 1905cc XUD9 - bulletproof

Post-1999/2000

- 1.9D N/A 1868cc DW8 - ridiculously simple and bulletproof
- This became the DW8B after ~2002 with some additional computer timing adjustment
- 2.0 HDi 1997cc turbocharged
- 1.6 HDi 1,560 cc turbocharged (with unreliable turbos I gather)

The DW8 will run on veg with the Bosch pump. The HDIs not so much although Firemoth has done it."

Great pics and very useful to know this crossover point Kenbw2. My current vehicle is a Tourneo Connect. But as I write this it has been in garage for the last 6wks after going in for a routine MOT renewal, and I now feel my mech is mugging me off as he has since told me after having undertaken £375 worth of advisories that the sills are f***ed and will be 2k to remedy. And still no MOT. So am in a bit of a bind, not sure where to go next with that tbh!

I would defo like to find a 1.9 SVO friendly Scudo/Expert/Dispatch as I have owned two 1.9d prior. (Lucas pump) confirmed by your pics, and found them to suit my needs perfectly. The previous 1.9td I had my eye on turned out to be 2.0HDI, I presume these have Lucas pumps?

In truth I am looking for something like yours Kenwb2 (bosch pump) preferably with tow bar, though I have fitted one before best to have one fitted already imho. Learnt alot whilst working on this kind of van myself whilst owning one. And thats part of the appeal tbh. Although I made the mistake of not administering secondry nipping up of sump plug after oil change, which eventually led to the ultimate demise of my 1st (Expert), the van not me wink

Also anyone know if the starter motors from xud9/dw8/b are compatible as I still have a brand new one removed from my first van.

Last edited by badrobot (2020-02-18 16:32:32)

kenbw2 · 2020-02-18 16:40:39

badrobot wrote:

I would defo like to find a 1.9 SVO friendly Scudo/Expert/Dispatch as I have owned two 1.9d prior. (Lucas pump) confirmed by your pics, and found them to suit my needs perfectly. The previous 1.9td I had my eye on turned out to be 2.0HDI, I presume these have Lucas pumps?
In truth I am looking for something like yours Kenwb2 (bosch pump) preferably with tow bar, though I have fitted one before best to have one fitted already imho. Learnt alot whilst working on this kind of van myself whilst owning one. And thats part of the appeal tbh.

The 2006 being the 2.0 makes much more sense. Mystery solved!

You'll find the DW8s are 99% Lucas - I gather the Bosch pumps were a rarity like on vaz's 306. Mine actually came off an XUD9 engine - the DW8 amd XUD9 are so similar it's a reasonable bolt off bolt on job. I got one off eBay for about £70 and paid to have it changed over.

If you can get hold of a 1.9TD though you have much better chance of finding one with a Bosch pump. On the turbocharged 1.9TD the Bosch looks like this

The 2.0s are a completely different fuel system. Although I think they're Bosch, they're common rail high pressure fuel systems so much less suited to veg running, although it can be done if you wanna risk it.

I'd say if you can find a 1.9TD in decent nick, get that. You'll likely have an easier time finding a DW8(B) and if you're happy to live life more slowly that'll be a great bet. 50% veg or 100% if you wanna go down the Bosch conversion route.

badrobot wrote:

Although I made the mistake of not administering secondry nipping up of sump plug after oil change, which eventually led to the ultimate demise of my 1st (Expert), the van not me

Ouch! Disaster!

Last edited by kenbw2 (2020-02-18 16:41:42)

badrobot · 2020-02-18 18:10:15

Got the option of 2003 2.0 JTD. Does anyone know if I can put a bosch pump in this at some point?

Tiree · 2020-02-18 18:22:41

2.0 JTD is the same engine as the 2.0 HDI - as Kenbw2 said, think they're already Bosch [mine is] but less suited to SVO

Casper · 2020-02-18 18:48:51

This will be the bugger no?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CITROEN-OR-P … SwAj9eEkqA

Did one of you on here not say you would also need the fuel lined from the donor van?

Last edited by Casper (2020-02-18 18:51:02)

badrobot · 2020-02-18 19:04:57

Inked86801592_200658524325573_1840792325589041152_n_LI.jpeg

This is what it looks like under the hood. does'nt seem like any of the pics offered up on here.

Last edited by badrobot (2020-02-18 19:28:39)

Tiree · 2020-02-18 19:21:26

Yep - that looks like my HDI

badrobot · 2020-02-18 19:32:01

Tiree wrote:

Yep - that looks like my HDI

Ah ok, so it is a bosch but the issue is the common rail version. thoughts Firemoth?

So many options under the hood aren't there.

kenbw2 · 2020-02-18 22:29:12

Casper wrote:

This will be the bugger no?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CITROEN-OR-P … SwAj9eEkqA
Did one of you on here not say you would also need the fuel lined from the donor van?

Almost! You see that "mushroom" on the top? That means it's for the 1.9TD - the turbocharged version so can't be used on the DW8.

You do need to fel lines but I got mine for cheap (£68 I think?) from Citroen themselves.

badrobot wrote:

Ah ok, so it is a bosch but the issue is the common rail version. thoughts Firemoth?

The HDi aka JTD is an entirely different beast so not really comparable, but Firemoth will be able to tell you his experience.

badrobot · 2020-02-19 00:02:37

"You see that "mushroom" on the top? That means it's for the 1.9TD - the turbocharged version so can't be used on the DW8."

Is DW8 non turbo and DW8B the turbo version then?

steve the grease · 2020-02-19 02:03:01

The turbo 1.9 finished in 1999 when the 2.0 Hdi came out. The DW8 is the old school engine , it will run veg oil all day long if it has a Bosch pump. The Lucas /Delphi pump is weak and will fail. 99% of DW8's have a Lucas pump. So you need to fit a bosch pump off an older XUD engine. These are getting harder to come buy and its a not a perfectly simple swap, you need to change the pipes as well , and bend them to fit the differently placed injectors.

The 2.0 Hdi, is a completely different kettle of fish . It is a direct injection engine , not a Ricardo design. The fuel injection system is a high pressure common rail system and will not tolerate anything like a neat veg oil mix. You cant , ' fit a bosch pump' it's not the same engine design. There are people on the veg oil diesel forum who are having some success running veg/ derv/rug mixes like (90%svo+10%rug) 60% and 40% derv.

I've been running XUD's on wvo for the past 12 years, so have some idea of what works and what won't.

Last edited by steve the grease (2020-02-19 02:05:24)

steve the grease · 2020-02-19 02:04:12

badrobot wrote:

"You see that "mushroom" on the top? That means it's for the 1.9TD - the turbocharged version so can't be used on the DW8."
Is DW8 non turbo and DW8B the turbo version then?

No it's the same engine just modified slightly ( version B) not a turbo. there is no Turbo DW8

kenbw2 · 2020-02-19 02:06:42

badrobot wrote:

"You see that "mushroom" on the top? That means it's for the 1.9TD - the turbocharged version so can't be used on the DW8."
Is DW8 non turbo and DW8B the turbo version then?

No there is no turbo version of the DW8

The only difference between the DW8 and DW8B is some electronic timing control on the fuel pump.

The only turbocharged engine post-2000 is the 2.0 and 1.6 HDi engines which as Steve the Grease says is totally different and not suited to veg at all really.

steve the grease · 2020-02-19 02:06:53

badrobot wrote:

https://dispatchexpertscudo.org.uk/foru … _n_LI.jpeg
This is what it looks like under the hood. does'nt seem like any of the pics offered up on here.

No mate , that is the fuel filter on a 2.0 Hdi.

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#1 2020-02-17 02:56:18

Virgin post-oil rev-solution

#2 2020-02-17 16:49:07

Re: Virgin post-oil rev-solution

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