Running issue, please help! Thank you :)

Captainslow · 2021-11-03 14:16:50

Hi everyone, this is my first post here so first of all let me say hi and introduce myself. My name is Ade and I have a DW8 engined expert.

I have a bit of an odd problem with my van that I'm hoping someone might be able to point me in the right direction with....

First symptom was an intermittent eml, no noticeable running symptoms though (I seem to remember not being able to get my diagnostic kit to communicate with it at the time so couldn't get a code, gonna have another go now its at the forefront of my mind again, its been a while as its been off the road needing a clutch and I've only just got round to doing it. I'll post again with codes if I manage to get anything and if not maybe theres another problem you guys might be able to advise on!)

Anyway...

After the intermittent eml for a while, eventually it stayed on more or less all the time and then one day, utterly suddenly, it started running really really badly, wouldn't idle and horrendous if you kept it alive with throttle. Blanked off egr, made no difference. After a little research and based on how the engine was behaving, I suspected the advace solenoid on the pump and so I unplugged and the van ran absolutely sweet again, maybe a little down on what little power it has... but runs lovely with the solenoid unplugged. Eml on of course. Some time later.... I've just fitted a new one hoping to solve my problem but the engine behaves exactly the same as it did with the old one when it's connected. When it's not, it runs fine. I can only assume therfore that rather than the advance solenoid itself being faulty, for some reason it's being told to do the wrong thing?? What could cause this? Any thoughts or experience with anything similar greatly appreciated!

OAT · 2021-11-03 19:54:59

Hello and welcome Captainslow.

These new fangled ecu doodahs are a mystery to me so I am of no use at all.
We do have some more experienced members so I hope someone else will be along soon.
Might it be worth seeing if you can borrow different diag system/software and see if there are any different results?
Can be a bit quiet here though so please be patient.

Last edited by OAT (2021-11-03 19:56:05)

Captainslow · 2021-11-05 10:12:21

Quick update... tried to have a chat with it on my delphi diagnostic software. Didn't have the 1.9 option in expert but had the right engine code and system listen under the same year 1.9 berlingo so tried that but wouldn't connect. Tried it on standard obd protocol and got connected, it told me that the eml was on but apparently number of stored codes was 0??!! I'm thinking maybe need to try pug planet or lexia?? Anyone in the northants area got these softwares and want to earn some beer money?? Cheers, Ade

Casper · 2021-11-05 12:57:48

Ask the guys on the Fiat Forum what software is used. Im sure there is different levels and one (Limited) is free. It covers the three brands as far as i know

https://www.fiatforum.com/

Failing that JohnDrangonMan on here is admin ion the forum. He may know more

JohnDragonMan · 2021-11-05 22:16:54

dont bother with software, just change the crank position sensor.

i would pretty much bet money on some part of the clutch breaking off and damaging it.

i guess the van srtarts and runs but it smokes and hits and misses.

if you know a taxi scrap yard just get a sensor from that. the DW8 and DW 10 (HDi) both use the same crank position sensor.

i recommend removing it from the bell housing just to check it, its easy to do, just remove the air filter box and look on top of the bell housing right next to the engine block. you will see it with a 2 wire plug going into it. undo the 10mm bolt a bit and turn the sensor anti clockwise then pull it upwards. ou dont need to undo the bolt all the way as it kinda hooks in then get bolted down.

done 2 clutch changes so far on these vans and had the same issue with both! though on mine it was self inflicted because i fit the wrong flywheel.

if you changed the flywheel and suspect it may hit it, turn the engine to the point where the sensor would hit it and put a dab of grease or paint on the end then poke it in the hole. pull it back out and see if the paint has been moved as it hit the sensing point on the flywheel. if it does, pack some washers under it wink

experience is a good thing sometimes.. lets you recognise a mistake milliseconds before you make it again

Captainslow · 2021-11-07 08:23:39

Thanks for that buddy, I'll give it a go. It did start misbehaving well before I had any problems with the clutch mind you but I guess it's and easy enough thing to try! And yeah, you're description of the way it runs pretty much sums it up (when the advance solenoid is connected)

I guess when it's unplugged and just running at base timing as determined by the diesel pump then the cps makes absolutely no difference to anything as the injection timing is mechanically determined but makes sense that of course it will need some kind of position ref to manage the electronic advance. I do have an oscilloscope so maybe worth scoping the signal, see if it looks convincing or not, or indeed whether there's actually a signal there!

Thanks again! I'll report back with my findings when I next get a chance to play with it!

Ade

Tjef · 2021-11-12 00:43:28

Hello,

i'm having the same issue with my DW8 from 2001.

running good on cold start as long as the glow plugs are active, like after 1 minute it starts running rough and heavy smoking "white"
if i unplug the advanced solenoid on the bottom of the pump it runs good with no smoke, but makes a louder noise.

i allready changed: Fuel pump, advance solenoid, fuel filter, injectors, needle lift sensor (injector no1), crank position sensor, checked timing markt 3 times allready all good.
compression test is also passed and i did a reshim of the valve clearance.

What else can i do to find this problem?
no trouble codes stored in the ECU.

JohnDragonMan · 2021-11-12 03:13:58

have you made sure that all of the levers on the fuel pump move freely? know on the older XUD pumps that if the stop lever was stuck in a "slightly stopped" position it would cause it to smoke and run rough.

it could be an issue with the coolant sensor maybe.. or some temperature sensor. not many sensors on a DW8 though.

maybe air getting into the fuel filter.. or a blocked fuel filter.. had that cause issues for me before. i think you have some clear fuel pipes on the engine, any bubbles going through them? they shouldn't be any.

try unplugging the mass air flow sensor.. i have no idea why a non turbo diesel needs one of these but (i do its for EGR monitoring bit useless however as without a turbo it will never get a fine enough reading to make a difference also something else to go wrong)

it should not really affect it much but it could be a sticky EGR.. i know these run a highish EGR when idle. could be that giving issues

i know the old school way to fix it is to just replace the injector pump with an old XUD pump. from what i have read, they just bolt right on!

Tjef · 2021-11-12 09:14:32

All levers on the pump are moving good none are hard to move.
I also adjusted the fuel lever position sensor to its specs giving on the yellow label makes no difference.

The coolant sensor is working but tried changing it anyway but no difference.

Air mass i tried unplugging it makes no difference to the engine and the EGR valve seems closed no cabon build up around it.
But i blacked it off to make sure, no difference still running the same.

I tried running the Engine on a gascan to make sure the fuel filter housing is not leaking air in the system but no difference.
No air bubles visible in fuel lines.

Its strange aslong as i keep the glowplugs on (connecter to the battery) then the engine is running fine when i turn them off the engine starts shaking and smoking alot.

OAT · 2021-11-12 17:38:02

That does seem odd. You would think once running there would be more than enough heat from combustion to ignite fuel.

Have you considered some compression loss?

Tjef · 2021-11-12 17:54:37

Compression between cilinders are between 33 and 35 bar. Tested it twice to be sure.
Valve clearance is between spec.
Inlet 0.15 +-0.07
Outlet 0.30 +-0.07

Maybe a Ecu malfunction thas its miscommunicatie with the advance solenoid?

I have no clue to this.

Since i unplugged the advance solenoid it runs good only lack on power ofcorse.

JohnDragonMan · 2021-11-12 20:20:17

try unplugging the injectors.. or the crank sensor.. see if you get the same affect while the glows are on.. technically it should still have the issue with or without the glows on (maybe a injector earth/power issue)

makes me wonder if theres an earth issue.. or maybe some kind of power issue.. when the glow plugs are on its helping something earth.. check the earthing strap from engine to body or engine to battery.

could also try messing around with the glow plug box thing next to the ECU (i think the DW8 has one).

of course.. it could always be the ignition switch acting up... which i know can cause issues where it turns off power to the ECU but not the stop solenoid (these vans have 2 ignition lives... if one stops working the ECU turns off without you knowing)

maybe thats what happening.. the ECU is sharing its power from the glow plug "relay" try powering the ECU manually.

have you checked fuses? if not try unplugging them all then plugging them back in.. my old Fiat, they seemed to break connection sometimes and needed a bit of a wiggle...

i dont think this is a mechanical issue..

Last edited by JohnDragonMan (2021-11-12 20:23:32)

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#1 2021-11-03 14:16:50

Running issue, please help! Thank you :)

#2 2021-11-03 19:54:59

Re: Running issue, please help! Thank you :)

#3 2021-11-05 10:12:21

Re: Running issue, please help! Thank you :)

#4 2021-11-05 12:57:48

Re: Running issue, please help! Thank you :)

#5 2021-11-05 22:16:54

Re: Running issue, please help! Thank you :)

#6 2021-11-07 08:23:39

Re: Running issue, please help! Thank you :)

#7 2021-11-12 00:43:28

Re: Running issue, please help! Thank you :)

#8 2021-11-12 03:13:58

Re: Running issue, please help! Thank you :)

#9 2021-11-12 09:14:32

Re: Running issue, please help! Thank you :)

#10 2021-11-12 17:38:02

Re: Running issue, please help! Thank you :)

#11 2021-11-12 17:54:37

Re: Running issue, please help! Thank you :)

#12 2021-11-12 20:20:17

Re: Running issue, please help! Thank you :)

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