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#1 2019-03-21 03:30:41

GRIFFIN
Member
From: DURHAM
Registered: 2019-03-16
Posts: 15

2006 Scudo 1868 Diesel - smoking spluttering - lack of power. GRRRR

Bought my Scudo a few weeks ago and drove it back from Spalding to Durham doing 60 - 70 all the way without a problem. then after a week or so it developed an intermittent misfire. At first it was after covering enough distance to get it up to temperature, then it was whenever I put my foot down but sometimes it was ok. Had to get the AA out as it became undriveable and not environmentally friendly at all. The guy briefly checked a few things out before offering to tow me to my destination but didn't give me any clues as to what was really wrong. I did notice however that it ran a lot better when he unplugged the MAF sensor. After he dropped me off at my destination and I did what I had to do, I eventually had to get home. I set off using as little throttle as I could get away with, so avoiding the voluminous clouds of smoke but when I got onto a 50mph stretch of road I decided to stop and unplug the MAF sensor. This made a marked improvement where smoke was concerned but still not enough power to pull the skin off a rice pudding, still it did get me home, where I resolved to change the MAF sensor for a new £55 one from my local auto store.

Yeah you guessed it, still the same, no power and lots of smoke. My friendly neighbourhood mechanic came out and plugged in his box of tricks, only to find several faults, which he deleted. One of them had been the EGR valve (situated conveniently right on the middle of the air inlet manifold/collector box under the bonnet) which I duly removed and cleaned, fully expecting to solve the problem...…………...Nah, not a hope, still the same. Now I am a persistent bugger and was sure the problem was EGR related, so I removed the valve assembly and found a broken wire in the connector. Bingo, I carefully dismantled the connector, cut it out of the loom along with a couple of inches of wire, carefully soldered it back together and sealed it with a tiny tube of heat shrink before crimping on some connectors to attach it back into the loom. I was so excited and please with myself when I reassembled the EGR valve, then went out for yet another road test and yes...…….it was still smoking and rattling like a bag of hammers, I could have cried.

Next day I removed the EGR valve, reconnected the vacuum pipes and wiring, started the engine and observed that the valve was working perfectly, or so it seemed. I did wonder why the butterfly valve was closing quite so much but to be honest I didn't really know how the butterfly valve interacted with the exhaust valve. Somewhat at a loss, I put it all back together, then had a brainwave!!!! If I disconnected both of the vacuum pipes, it would disable both the Exhaust valve and the butterfly valve, so I did. No excitement this time when I went to try it out but neither was there any smoke or misfiring as I reached an easy seventy MPH, (sorry my mistake,60 MPH) on the bypass round the village. I stopped in the layby just to pop the vacuum pipe back on the exhaust valve and as I expected there was a little smoke and slightly less power than before but no dramatic loss of power because the butterfly valve wasn't choking the air supply and making it run stupidly rich.

Now I'm gonna start selling an EGR valve bypass kit on ebay. I'll be able to brag that at £50 it'll be about quarter of the price of a new EGR valve, it'll give you slightly more power and slightly less smoke and It'll consist of two M6 x 12mm button head Allen screws which my lengthy instruction sheet will tell you to insert into the ends of your now redundant vacuum pipes. At a cost of a few pence each to me, I will soon be able to retire. In any case whether you buy your own m6 screws from the local DIY shop or you buy them from me on ebay, free postage obviously, you will have fixed your dodgy EGR valve and your Scudo, Dispatch or Expert will run like a dream.

Cheers, GRIFFIN

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#2 2019-03-21 08:34:53

Casper
Member
From: East Lothian
Registered: 2015-12-20
Posts: 1,222

Re: 2006 Scudo 1868 Diesel - smoking spluttering - lack of power. GRRRR

I blanked mine off using the lid of an old tobacco tin  big_smile  The Scudo may be to old but some will show up a fault and put the EML on. I never had a power or smoke issue but was told i could get an few extra MPG doing it so as i like to travel distance then bingo, it was a no brainer. Not been out properly to try yet but if i can get closer to 40 MPG i will be a happy bunny. When i was looking into the EGR i took it to read they only work down on the low rev range. If this is the case how would it be causing issues at higher revs?

BTW did you get that Scudo with 12 month MOT. I am thinking it was blocked off by previous owner then taken out for MOT and put uo for sale. You may find the pipe from the turbo to the valve blocked with soot. More so if its had a stop start life in town where it never seen high revs before.

^^ All that is presuming the Scudo runs its EGR the same way as my old Convoy.

Glad yer sorted

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#3 2019-03-21 09:53:20

vaz2121
Member
From: SW. Scotland
Registered: 2015-08-31
Posts: 511

Re: 2006 Scudo 1868 Diesel - smoking spluttering - lack of power. GRRRR

Casper:  If it's an 1868cc as per headline "It's a non Turbo DW8 in it, But I see the confusion with the mention of MAF....

Griffin: Could you clarify if it is an HDI as I'm with basicly Caspers discription on this ............

BTW "I'm sure I don't have a MAF on my DW8"  (2005 van) also I cut the Ar** out of a Coke can and used it to blank my EGR on the 306 and the van but the alloy burnt through within a year so both now have been removed...........

However I would say plugging in a code reader is exactly what you want to do..... but codes can only be used as a guide from what the sensor is or thinks it is reading and your interpretation of it................A code reader will never diagnose Mechanical issues

Sounds as though to me that you could have a fueling issue ............ based on the old school KISS priciple that I am

Lack of power blockage to fuel flow usualy.............fuel filter
Along with black smoke = more fuel than Air ........... So Air filter or intake restriction

Timing is another issue ..... If fuel is injected at wrong time you can get the classic Diesel knock  (Advanced) as your symptoms are I'd be more inclined to think Retarded


If you do have a turbo a lack of boost could also create those symptoms...........

I'm just talking out loud and trying to figure a possible prognosis from description on where I'd start ...........And not actualy seeing the vehicle............

Last edited by vaz2121 (2019-03-21 10:01:06)

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#4 2019-03-21 13:22:23

Casper
Member
From: East Lothian
Registered: 2015-12-20
Posts: 1,222

Re: 2006 Scudo 1868 Diesel - smoking spluttering - lack of power. GRRRR

vaz2121 wrote:

Casper:  If it's an 1868cc as per headline "It's a non Turbo DW8 in it, But I see the confusion with the mention of MAF....

I was kind of presuming the 1.9 Turbo was the same engine. Notice its a 1905 now.

Worth remembering folk. When Blanking the EGR valve its now an MOT fail so when MOT is due i would recommend taking it out a few days to a week before the MOT to blow out any soot. You dont want a fail on emissions as well  big_smile

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#5 2019-03-22 01:03:27

GRIFFIN
Member
From: DURHAM
Registered: 2019-03-16
Posts: 15

Re: 2006 Scudo 1868 Diesel - smoking spluttering - lack of power. GRRRR

Just to clarify: it is not a turbo and it does have a MAF sensor, right after the air filter which I replaced two days after buying the van, along with the fuel filter.

The problem wasn't with the actual EGR valve its self, it was the butterfly or choke valve in the EGR valve intake closing too much or at the wrong time, therefore cutting off the air supply and causing the smoke and lack of power. You don't need to make a blanking device for my model (2006 1868cc). As I described, all you need to do is remove and block up the vacuum pipes and as I said in the post, I disconnected them both to solve my problem and tried it again with the EGR valve vacuum pipe reinstalled. the only change that made was a slight lack of power and a slight increase in smoke, so I chose to remove it and run without the EGR system. Maybe I should have explained that without the vacuum, the EGR valve stays closed and the butterfly valve stays open, hence you do not need to blank anything off.

I'm wondering how will the MoT test show up a disabled EGR valve like mine, as there is no plate or other blanking device? Of course I could just reconnect the vacuum pipe to allow the EGR valve to work normally and leave the faulty butterfly valve disconnected.

Hope that all makes sense? Cheers, Griffin.

Last edited by GRIFFIN (2019-03-22 01:11:58)

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#6 2019-03-23 01:14:49

vaz2121
Member
From: SW. Scotland
Registered: 2015-08-31
Posts: 511

Re: 2006 Scudo 1868 Diesel - smoking spluttering - lack of power. GRRRR

GRIFFIN wrote:

Just to clarify: it is not a turbo and it does have a MAF sensor, right after the air filter

You learn something New everyday right enough

I made a point in popping  the bonnet on the 306 this morning as I had it with me........... And No MAF
306-bay.jpg
{306 as per}

It started to bug me somewhat as it came to me the 306 has a Bosch pump and the Van a Delphi.....

So at elevensies (It was actually in the afternoon) I made a be-line for the Van and it occurred to me that the 306 is fitted with a DW8 and the Van a DW8/B..............And Lo and Behold

GRIFFIN: I apologize to all ...When I looked at the Van... There it was exactly where you said ....In a position that I had never noticed before and I had obviously made the assumption therefore that both were  the same........

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#7 2019-03-23 01:18:22

kenbw2
Member
From: Bradford/Preston/Anywhere
Registered: 2017-11-26
Posts: 288

Re: 2006 Scudo 1868 Diesel - smoking spluttering - lack of power. GRRRR

My 1999 DW8 has no MAF sensor either (and no ECU)


2000 Citroen Dispatch 1.9TD XUD9 Upcoming Camper
1999 Citroen Dispatch 1.9D DW8 Camper Conversion + full time home
1996 Peugeot 806 1.9TD XUD9 Spare vehicle
1998 Citroen Synergie 1.9TD XUD9 Snapped timing belt

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#8 2019-03-23 02:02:35

GRIFFIN
Member
From: DURHAM
Registered: 2019-03-16
Posts: 15

Re: 2006 Scudo 1868 Diesel - smoking spluttering - lack of power. GRRRR

MAF sensors and ECUs are both inventions of the devil, as are EGR valves. Yeah I guess mine is a DW8/B too. I'm new to all these diesel problems. I put my first 20ltr drum of vegetable oil in the Scudo thisavo with about the same quantity of Diesel that was already in the tank. I think it burns cleaner than pure diesel and gives about the same MPG, not to mention the fact that at £15.99 for 20 litres it's a no brainer. big_smile.

I also have a Diesel Fiat Multipla that I use with 50-50 Diesel and vegetable oil from late March till end of October and it's never missed a beat. It does have a turbo though but will pull a ton no probs. Gonna sell it now though cos my race bike wont fit in the back and that's why I bought the Scudo.

Cheers, Griffin.

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#9 2019-03-23 10:18:56

kenbw2
Member
From: Bradford/Preston/Anywhere
Registered: 2017-11-26
Posts: 288

Re: 2006 Scudo 1868 Diesel - smoking spluttering - lack of power. GRRRR

Veg oil? Get yourself to Tesco - 70p a litre atm. Are you on a Lucas or Bosch pump? I put an XUD9 Bosch pump in mine and run on 100% veg when it's warm enough


2000 Citroen Dispatch 1.9TD XUD9 Upcoming Camper
1999 Citroen Dispatch 1.9D DW8 Camper Conversion + full time home
1996 Peugeot 806 1.9TD XUD9 Spare vehicle
1998 Citroen Synergie 1.9TD XUD9 Snapped timing belt

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#10 2019-03-23 13:53:41

GRIFFIN
Member
From: DURHAM
Registered: 2019-03-16
Posts: 15

Re: 2006 Scudo 1868 Diesel - smoking spluttering - lack of power. GRRRR

OOOHHH goody I'll be at my neighbourhood tesco thisavo to get stocked up if they haven't increased the price. I think Mine has a Delphi pump but i'm not 100% on that, I'll have to check. Didn't realize that different pumps made a difference.

Cheers, Griff.

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#11 2019-03-23 14:24:35

vaz2121
Member
From: SW. Scotland
Registered: 2015-08-31
Posts: 511

Re: 2006 Scudo 1868 Diesel - smoking spluttering - lack of power. GRRRR

GRIFFIN wrote:

MAF sensors and ECUs are both inventions of the devil, as are EGR valves.

I agree wholeheartedly That's why we (partner and I) went back to the 306 diesel from a 307 HDI almost 10yrs ago and 90% reason we bought this van ................

Although now my attention has been brought into line these are still mechanical diesels opposed to the like of HDI, CDI, CDTI, JTD, ETC ETC

So the electronic control is as minimal as we can get ............ So I'm still inclined to sugest oldish school........... Train of thought procces

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#12 2019-03-23 15:12:21

vaz2121
Member
From: SW. Scotland
Registered: 2015-08-31
Posts: 511

Re: 2006 Scudo 1868 Diesel - smoking spluttering - lack of power. GRRRR

The Delphi pump is essentially a Lucas cav pump  (and will have Lucas marking somewhere probably).......... It's the less desireable of the 2 big name pump makers in general ......It's not very tolerant to veg Oil  because of the use of diaphragms/design

Delphi eventualy bought/ Took over/ acquired Lucas diesel division business bits during/ after the the Lucas Industries  collapse in 95, 96, 97 thereabouts

Last edited by vaz2121 (2019-03-23 15:16:35)

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#13 2019-03-23 21:30:10

kenbw2
Member
From: Bradford/Preston/Anywhere
Registered: 2017-11-26
Posts: 288

Re: 2006 Scudo 1868 Diesel - smoking spluttering - lack of power. GRRRR

GRIFFIN wrote:

OOOHHH goody I'll be at my neighbourhood tesco thisavo to get stocked up if they haven't increased the price. I think Mine has a Delphi pump but i'm not 100% on that, I'll have to check. Didn't realize that different pumps made a difference.

Cheers, Griff.

Definitely makes a difference. Bosch ones are much better able to handle the veg, although you should b alright at 50:50, especially avoiding cold starts.

I changed mine in advance of failure, but you could keep running it till it starts leaking. My old 106 had a Lucas pump and it ran a while on biodiesel before it leaked.


2000 Citroen Dispatch 1.9TD XUD9 Upcoming Camper
1999 Citroen Dispatch 1.9D DW8 Camper Conversion + full time home
1996 Peugeot 806 1.9TD XUD9 Spare vehicle
1998 Citroen Synergie 1.9TD XUD9 Snapped timing belt

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#14 2019-03-23 22:48:17

GRIFFIN
Member
From: DURHAM
Registered: 2019-03-16
Posts: 15

Re: 2006 Scudo 1868 Diesel - smoking spluttering - lack of power. GRRRR

Just back from shopping trip to Tesco, boy do people stare when you walk round the supermarket with 8 5ltr bottles of cooking oil in your trolley!!! Would have got more but they only had 8 on the stand.

Thanks for the heads up about the different kinds of pump, I was going to increase the percentage of veg oil but I think I'll stick round 50% for now. I'm guessing all I need to do is follow the outlet from the fuel filter housing and that will take me to the pump? I'll post a photo and see if anyone recognizes the maker.

Cheers, Griff.

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#15 2019-03-23 23:29:30

kenbw2
Member
From: Bradford/Preston/Anywhere
Registered: 2017-11-26
Posts: 288

Re: 2006 Scudo 1868 Diesel - smoking spluttering - lack of power. GRRRR

Its worse when the staff start questioning it! "Wow, you use a lot of oil". Uh, yea.

You can tell by looking:

My old Lucas:
2017-02-24-Fuel-Pump.jpg

My current Bosch:
2017-09-14-New-Bosch-Fuel-Pump.jpg

Last edited by kenbw2 (2019-03-23 23:30:36)


2000 Citroen Dispatch 1.9TD XUD9 Upcoming Camper
1999 Citroen Dispatch 1.9D DW8 Camper Conversion + full time home
1996 Peugeot 806 1.9TD XUD9 Spare vehicle
1998 Citroen Synergie 1.9TD XUD9 Snapped timing belt

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#16 2019-03-26 00:27:12

vaz2121
Member
From: SW. Scotland
Registered: 2015-08-31
Posts: 511

Re: 2006 Scudo 1868 Diesel - smoking spluttering - lack of power. GRRRR

That from what I can see is the Bosch pumpas fitted to the 306.............
They say the best pump for SVO is the inline Bosch pump as fitted to pre CDI Mercedes.............in preference to Rotary pumps obviously if you can...........

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#17 2019-03-26 00:31:51

kenbw2
Member
From: Bradford/Preston/Anywhere
Registered: 2017-11-26
Posts: 288

Re: 2006 Scudo 1868 Diesel - smoking spluttering - lack of power. GRRRR

vaz2121 wrote:

That from what I can see is the Bosch pumpas fitted to the 306.............

Mine's off the earlier XUD9 engine, it seems they're interchangeable


2000 Citroen Dispatch 1.9TD XUD9 Upcoming Camper
1999 Citroen Dispatch 1.9D DW8 Camper Conversion + full time home
1996 Peugeot 806 1.9TD XUD9 Spare vehicle
1998 Citroen Synergie 1.9TD XUD9 Snapped timing belt

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#18 2019-03-26 14:35:59

GRIFFIN
Member
From: DURHAM
Registered: 2019-03-16
Posts: 15

Re: 2006 Scudo 1868 Diesel - smoking spluttering - lack of power. GRRRR

As promised, here's a photo of my pump.SCUDO-DIESEL-PUMP.jpeg

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#19 2019-03-26 15:28:11

kenbw2
Member
From: Bradford/Preston/Anywhere
Registered: 2017-11-26
Posts: 288

Re: 2006 Scudo 1868 Diesel - smoking spluttering - lack of power. GRRRR

Yep, that's a Lucas


2000 Citroen Dispatch 1.9TD XUD9 Upcoming Camper
1999 Citroen Dispatch 1.9D DW8 Camper Conversion + full time home
1996 Peugeot 806 1.9TD XUD9 Spare vehicle
1998 Citroen Synergie 1.9TD XUD9 Snapped timing belt

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#20 2019-03-26 19:13:16

GRIFFIN
Member
From: DURHAM
Registered: 2019-03-16
Posts: 15

Re: 2006 Scudo 1868 Diesel - smoking spluttering - lack of power. GRRRR

Can anyone help with this? I've got two wires down beside the pump that were just laying there not connected, one green and the other yellow, they had heat shrink round the ends but I couldn't tell if they had been deliberately disconnected and insulated or if they had been accidentally pulled out. I've put fresh crimp on connectors on and sealed them with tape till I get to know what they are from.SCUDO-WIRES.jpeg

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