Hot-starting issue ...

Tiree · 2019-08-20 17:10:53

Great suggestions guys .. Think I've got one of those kicking about Casper - will see what I can rig up .....

Thanks as ever!

Tiree · 2019-08-20 21:28:11

OK found the connector for the lift pump.

There are 4 wires go into / out of it.

I need to do some testing tomorrow to find out which is which - but they are:

- Fuel level signal
- Booster pump supply (+ 12 volts)
- Booster pump earth
- Fuel sender earth

My question is - how am I best to connect the meter to the right wires when I find them? There's about 2 inches of exposed [still shielded] wire after the connector before the 4 wires disappear into a loom thing and up above the fuel tank.

Should I just cut them there and use a block connector to splice them together and patch the meter into that?

I'm probably not going to go as far as pulling the tank off.

tee_cee · 2019-08-21 08:45:33

Scotchlok connectors would do the job

Tiree · 2019-08-22 18:50:52

tee_cee wrote:

Scotchlok connectors would do the job

Hah! Just the job!

I was vaguely aware that such a thing existed but certainly didn't know what they were called smile

I'll order some up.

Are they generally reliable?

Casper · 2019-08-22 19:44:06

Tiree wrote:

tee_cee wrote:
Scotchlok connectors would do the job
Hah! Just the job!
Are they generally reliable?

Its how the tow ball electrics are wired in on my Convoy and they seem solid enough

tee_cee · 2019-08-23 09:13:10

Tiree wrote:

tee_cee wrote:
Scotchlok connectors would do the job
Hah! Just the job!
I was vaguely aware that such a thing existed but certainly didn't know what they were called
I'll order some up.
Are they generally reliable?

Short term they are fine, but I've had a few work loose over time. When I need something permanent I usually melt/scrape the insulation off the wire and solder to that.

pabblo · 2019-08-23 14:23:40

A bit of news, garage phoned and said the wring etc.. all checked out okay to the in tank pump.

But suspect the in tank fuel pump / sender unit / lift pump, however you like to call it.

Is a bit dodgy, and they've replaced it with a new one.

So we'll try it out, and hope to Christ it's alright now!!

Will keep you posted though, on how we get on.

Really hope this is sorted now, as we could really do with the van being in working order.

Anyway hope it goes well your end, in finding the fault smile

pabblo · 2019-09-02 10:33:15

Hi Tiree bad news, unfortunately after a few days of faultless running it's conked out again last night.

And is now refusing to restart at all, so will tow it home later today and guess I'll see what we got.

Hopefully this may mean the fault is easier to find, if it won't start at all!!

But that might be wishful thinking, fingers crossed there's better progress your end.

Tiree · 2019-09-02 21:07:13

Aw man .. that's disappointing - sorry to hear that.

In a cruel twist of fate - I read your updates while sitting at the side of a country road 63 miles from home - with my van cut out and refusing, point blank, to start at all.

Somehow it has taken the AA 9 hours to get the van to Castle Douglas and me home.

This was my view for 5 1/4 hours today:

Shattered.

Anyway - my van is now a proper non-starter too - which I agree is probably a good thing.

Zero noise from the lift pump here either when ignition hits on but the relay is definitely kicking in.

Still haven't managed to orchestrate a situation where I was able to get a meter on the plug at the tank when the problem occurs [it needs two people since you only get 5 seconds after you turn the key until it goes off again!] ... so I still can't rule out wiring.

However, it's at the garage now so hopefully it won't start for them and it will be easier to trace back.

My money was totally on the pump but, Pabblo, after your experience I'm not so confident.

Wiring issue could potentially be cheaper but could take an age to find / fix!

Onwards .......

pabblo · 2019-09-10 17:01:34

Hi Tiree,

that's okay just one of those things.

Sorry to hear about your bad luck as well, that sucks having to wait all that time to be recovered sad

I had a similar experience last year with the RAC, it took a total of just over 9 hours. From when the car broke down in Wales, to get us back to the Midlands. I was well an truly ready for my bed after that, so you have my sympathy.

As it isn't much fun at all, being stuck in the middle of nowhere!!

Hopefully as our van doesn't start at all now either, the garage will come up with something too. But we have the opposite problem, the brown relay does not kick in at all. So it's either a fault with that, or a problem with the wiring as the engine diesel pump is not getting a signal apparently.

Will post up once we know more on it, but fingers crossed you'll get some good news from the garage big_smile

Tiree · 2019-10-08 22:21:02

And on we go ... [sorry this is probably boring for those that don't have this problem!]

So as above, a month ago the van cut out and just would not start - and as above I got towed to the garage and left it with them.

They were mobbed that week - vehicles everywhere - so after a couple of days they got it up on the ramps, confirmed it would not start, confirmed that 12v was getting to the pump for priming and then started bashing stuff about a bit.

Good news - the van started.

Bad news - they gave me it back without us getting to the bottom of the issue - although their best guess was that the lift-pump was probably on its way out.

The van's been great ever since. No issues.

All the same I had some long trips in mind so I made the call to get the pump replaced anyway.

You know where this is going ...

Replaced the pump.

Everything fine.

Distinct lack of middle-market parts available so it was cheap crap or the real deal. Went for the real deal. Fine. But not cheap.

Went on 400 mile trip up to Kerrera and back.

Everything fine.

Got home, went to start the van next day.

Lift-pump didn't kick in. Didn't start.

Tried again. Lift-pump kicked in - started.

Been fine yesterday and today.

So the problem's not fixed for me.

What I'm not absolutely clear on is if I heard the relay click on or not this time when it failed.

So back to trying to get a permanent reading set up on the connector at the fuel tank so that when it does fail, I can confirm whether it's getting 12v or not.

In the meantime I don't have any big runs planned so will go about my business and wait for it to fail again!

Joy.

Kerrera was bonnie though!

Stu-D · 2019-10-09 23:33:01

Mate I'm not positive on the turbo ones but on my non turbo (Lucas system) I had and do have similar issues but it seems to start on the button since manually replacing and wiring a 12v feed to the fuel stop solenoid from the 12v reverse feed on gearbox, possibly not lift pump related at all? Does also ring a bell of an immobiliser issue to me.

Best,
-Stu

pabblo · 2019-10-10 12:38:58

I've seen your reply on my post Tiree, thanks for the tip on testing that wiring connector on the in tank pump / lift pump.

Got the Scudo back with a new brown relay fitted, so we wait with baited breath as to whether we've finally cracked the issue!!

However I'll see about doing that test I think anyway, certainly worth a shot just to be sure.

As I don't fancy towing the van anywhere again, fingers crossed your one false start was just a minor glitch.

And I will post up once we've run the van round a bit, hopefully with some positive news.

Did mention on my post, but love that view of Kerrera you shared by the way.

Looks fantastic, certainly more exciting than being on the M42 this morning!

Tiree · 2019-10-11 12:23:09

Stu-D wrote:

Mate I'm not positive on the turbo ones but on my non turbo (Lucas system) I had and do have similar issues but it seems to start on the button since manually replacing and wiring a 12v feed to the fuel stop solenoid from the 12v reverse feed on gearbox, possibly not lift pump related at all?

Hey Stu - thanks for your thoughts ..

The lift pump is definitely a factor in this in that when the van will not start, the lift pump is not activating.

However, given it's now been replaced I'm hoping we've ruled that item itself out!

But when the van won't start, it's still clear to hear that the lift pump isn't kicking in.

The fuel stop solenoid, I believe, stops fuel flow at the engine end so if it was stuck closed we'd still hear the lift pump fire up and try to prime the high-pressure system.

Stu-D wrote:

Does also ring a bell of an immobiliser issue to me.

Hmm .. I have absolutely no idea about the immobiliser on my van!

Does anyone know how it actually works? If it activates the fuel stop solenoid, then I think it won't be related. But if it somehow interacts with the lift pump then maybe.

I'm guessing not though as when the problem presents itself, the fuel relay in the engine bay clicks as if to engage the lift pump - the pump just doesn't kick in.

This leads me to suspect wiring / connectors between the relay and the lift pump.

Thanks again!

GRIFFIN · 2019-10-12 00:34:22

This is looking more like an auto electrical job than a general garage fix. If it was mine Tiree, I'd run a wire from the output side of the Liftpump solenoid to the lift pump as well as an additional earth wire if needed. I was in a similar position with the wiring on my EGR valve and both of the wires in the connector had failed inside the insulation, so you couldn't even see the problem. It was just shear luck and persistence that I found it. I'm just glad the wiring is a lot better on my new van that it was on the old one. It's almost like they were designed to fail, the wires are so flimsy.

Cheers, Griff.

Tiree · 2019-10-12 00:56:26

Thanks Griff - I agree and if the van was to fail again [ie - become a total non-starter] I'd have it towed home rather than the garage this time - I'd have a proper go at troubleshooting it myself first.

The issue is though ... as things stand - it has started fine and not cut out for 99% of the journeys I've made in the last month. Only once did the lift pump not engage and even then it fired up 5 seconds later when I tried again.

Sadly, the total-non-starter window was lost after the garage "bashed things about a bit" and got it starting again and so the opportunity to diagnose was kind of lost.

So, back to your suggestions - and I am very open to the idea that wires are giving up on me here - when you say liftpump solenoid - do you mean the big brown double fuel relay? Or something else?

Thanks as ever for your thoughts!

T

GRIFFIN · 2019-10-14 01:41:18

Not sure, but you mentioned hearing the solenoid click when the lift pump starts working. therefore if the lift pump has been changed and the solenoid is working, it must be the wiring. Of course, if you suspect the solenoid, I would change that as a precaution anyway but my engine management light was going on and off randomly and it was caused be a broken conductor in a wire that was hidden by the insulation. It was also much worse when the ambient temperature was higher, so I think the insulation may have been expanding and pulling the conductor apart, causing the circuit to break. Thankfully for me, the engine still started and ran fine but in your case it's much more frustrating and the garage moving things about may have just brought the ends of the conductor a little closer together, making it happen less often. Of course it could also be the wire supplying the power to the solenoid but then you wouldn't hear the solenoid working.

I hope that makes sense?

pabblo · 2019-11-25 19:41:18

Hi Tiree, hows your van going hopefully no more problems?

So far so good our end, since we had a brand new brown relay fitted after the new in tank pump.

Guessing some how, one has affected the other and that the issue was down too more than one component being faulty.

Tiree · 2019-11-25 21:20:34

Hey Pabblo - just reading your own thread there - glad to hear things have been OK!

And ... it's a case of so far so good here too.

I've done a lot of miles of late and it's not put a foot wrong.

Even made it through another year's MOT last week with just a couple of minor advisories [woop!]

I'll admit I don't feel 100% at ease not knowing exactly what has fixed it - or indeed if it is in fact properly fixed or if I'm still at the mercy of some lousy wires - but it's behaved for long enough now to let me get on with stuff without worrying about it.

Like you I've replaced the relay and the lift pump - but I've never been able to definitively pin it on any one thing.

For now .. onwards! ...

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#26 2019-08-20 17:10:53

Re: Hot-starting issue ...

#27 2019-08-20 21:28:11

Re: Hot-starting issue ...

#28 2019-08-21 08:45:33

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#29 2019-08-22 18:50:52

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#30 2019-08-22 19:44:06

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#31 2019-08-23 09:13:10

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#32 2019-08-23 14:23:40

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#33 2019-09-02 10:33:15

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#34 2019-09-02 21:07:13

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#35 2019-09-10 17:01:34

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#36 2019-10-08 22:21:02

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#37 2019-10-09 23:33:01

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#38 2019-10-10 12:38:58

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#39 2019-10-11 12:23:09

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#40 2019-10-12 00:34:22

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#41 2019-10-12 00:56:26

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#42 2019-10-14 01:41:18

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#43 2019-11-25 19:41:18

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#44 2019-11-25 21:20:34

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