DVLA says my van doesn't look like a camper from the outside

Zippypilot · 2019-09-13 18:59:29

Hi Ken, I finally caught up with my neighbour regarding his conversions. He said he had no problem this time regarding the minibus to camper, but has in the past, finding sending extra pictures showing the outside of the vehicle with the interior visible. he did say they can be arsey! Also of note, NO external changes made on either of his conversions, they are just being jobsworths!

vaz2121 · 2019-09-14 00:11:09

Zippypilot wrote:

He said he had no problem this time regarding the minibus to camper, but has in the past, NO external changes made on either of his conversions, they are just being jobsworths!

I've been looking a little more at this Subject as I'm Considering a change { Have done for couple years now}...................
It seems from what I've read is for whatever reason that virtually every applicant since May this year has been refused on the grounds of "Does not look like a Motorhome/Motor Caravan"...............
As it has been pointed out here there is Some form of unknown motovation behind this and it is disgraceful that vehicles built accordingly to their own minimum guidelines Nevermind those that exceed those proposed to be summarily refused .......................

Q: If a vehicle is built as a "Campervan" too or exceeding these guidlines and is refused a change of classification/categorization based solely on appearance.............
Does that Mean for insurance purposes it cannot be insured as A Motorhome but should as a van with Several Modifications ?

Zippypilot · 2019-09-14 00:42:01

vaz2121 wrote:

Zippypilot wrote:
He said he had no problem this time regarding the minibus to camper, but has in the past, NO external changes made on either of his conversions, they are just being jobsworths!
I've been looking a little more at this Subject as I'm Considering a change { Have done for couple years now}...................
It seems from what I've read is for whatever reason that virtually every applicant since May this year has been refused on the grounds of "Does not look like a Motorhome/Motor Caravan"...............
As it has been pointed out here there is Some form of unknown motovation behind this and it is disgraceful that vehicles built accordingly to their own minimum guidelines Nevermind those that exceed those proposed to be summarily refused .......................
Q: If a vehicle is built as a "Campervan" too or exceeding these guidlines and is refused a change of classification/categorization based solely on appearance.............
Does that Mean for insurance purposes it cannot be insured as A Motorhome but should as a van with Several Modifications ?

Hi again, I can see no reason why any why any vehicle cannot be reclassified. I have looked at DVLA and the website is as confusing as is their agenda of ruling. As I understand, ANY vehicle can be modified, adjusted or changed within the guidelines of road legality. Take Top Gear for example, they did it all the time. There is no basis for a vehicle NOT to be modified etc, the chassis and initial testing of it is done through manufacture, you have not altered any structural integrity etc, only use and interior. I would suggest asking them to send you the definition of "Motorhome/Motor Caravan" according to their legislation. I feel for you here as this is just complete and utter nonsense from them.

Zippypilot · 2019-09-14 00:48:09

I have not looked into the insurance yet, pretty sure they will not go against DVLA, I wonder if it maybe worth while contacting a online club of van/camper conversions and see what they have to say. Just because it's a small van, surely doesn't mean it's not convertible to other use?

Zippypilot · 2019-09-14 00:55:00

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati … -motorhome

Here is the link of requirements, long list of stuff but sure this can be got round?

OAT · 2019-09-14 09:57:22

Zippypilot wrote:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati … -motorhome
Here is the link of requirements, long list of stuff but sure this can be got round?

I notice that this list of requirements is updated 16th may. It is still inaccurate though as it specifies a 2 ring stove. This has already been accepted by DVLA as wrong and they have addmited that a single ring is acceptable.

It also says that if the internal camper requirements are fitted, that is a legal requirement to have it reclassified! :-

If the vehicle has all of these features present, permanently fixed and installed properly, then it is a legal requirement to have it reclassified as a motor caravan on the V5C.

If they then refuse on the grounds of external appearance, they are surely preventing you from complying with the law?

vaz2121 · 2019-09-14 10:07:48

Zippypilot wrote:

Just because it's a small van, surely doesn't mean it's not convertible to other use?

Apparently not......................

https://newatlas.com/flexcamper-mini-ca … ons/57706/

vaz2121 · 2019-09-14 10:26:30

It'come to my notice that the majority of the New professionally built Camper vans appear to be constructed in Europe "Is this their get out of jail free card"..............

Based on DVLA current rulings I need to brush up on photographic skills...........
I Could have Sold my Last truck for several thousands more.............

https://empirerv.co.uk/vehicle/scania-v … -for-sale/
Because "That looks like a {nicely fitted out all be it} truck to me

Zippypilot · 2019-09-14 13:07:48

Hi Vaz, I wonder a quick call to the AA may shed some light on this, they will know the DVLA regs etc well?

OAT · 2019-09-15 04:09:13

vaz2121 wrote:

Apparently not......................
https://newatlas.com/flexcamper-mini-ca … ons/57706/

It doesn't give any external appearance of a camper either.

kenbw2 · 2019-09-16 00:19:25

I wouldn't even say it passes the, uh, "reasonableness test" they specify in their FOI response.

I've posted off my letter to them - I've sent both sets of conversion letters for my white and blue vans and said "please ensure the decision you reach for the blue vehicle is consistent with the white one". Fingers crossed, but I don't have high hopes

vaz2121 · 2019-09-17 11:38:01

I briefly read a snippet the other day that someone purchased a New but Pre-reg T5 VW van and sent it in for professional Conversion to Campervan.................
Change of use was sent to DVLA and delivery was taken..............

DVLA refused request............
(I didn't pay enough attention to who made the application though) ......................

Is this the state of play that it was Pre-reg and Classified not Converted first and then registered?

k_wyndham_t · 2019-10-10 13:33:59

I was at a festival recently and was parked next to a guy who builds campers for a living.

He was sent a letter in May basically saying from now on you can F*** off and just consider them modified vans and dont bother re-regerstering them .

However what are they thinking by doing this the guidlines below say if everything is done it MUST be re-registered, I wonder if its the speedlimit thing, so vans do not need to pass the same crash test as passenger cars which is one of the reasons why they are only allowed to do 60 on dual carriageways, where as campervans, taxis and minibusses all do.
But as we all know the reality of that means that as those are based on vans in reality most vans inc. ours have all passed car safety testing.

I am just about to convert a E7 taxi to a camper, I will try and re-register once complete, will have mostly same stuff as my van based camper (see post about Muffin) and will be interested to see as its an M1 classified vehicle so already allowed to do 70mph on dual carriageway.

Motor caravan minimum features

In order for a converted vehicle to qualify as a motor caravan it must have certain minimum features:
•a door that provides access to the living accommodation
•a bed, which has a minimum length of 1800mm or 6 feet - this can be converted from seats used for other purposes during the day but must be permanently fixed within the body of the vehicle
•a water storage tank or container on, or in, the vehicle
•a seating and dining area, permanently attached to the vehicle - the table may be detachable but must have some permanent means of attachment to the vehicle. It is not good enough to have a loose table
•a permanently fixed means of storage, a cupboard, locker or wardrobe
•a permanently fixed cooking facility within the vehicle, powered by gas or electricity
•at least one window on the side of the accommodation

If the vehicle has all of these features present, permanently fixed and installed properly, then it is a legal requirement to have it reclassified as a motor caravan on the V5C.

kenbw2 · 2019-10-10 13:45:34

Unfortunately playing logic with them won't work, all they have to do is repeat their body type assertions and "reasonableness tests", with them having the final say. I guess only taking them to court will change things.

I didn't actually say, but they rejected me again following my letter I sent them saying "why the different answer when it's the same f-in van as the last one you accepted"

k_wyndham_t · 2019-10-10 13:50:28

kenbw2 wrote:

Unfortunately playing logic with them won't work, all they have to do is repeat their body type assertions and "reasonableness tests", with them having the final say. I guess only taking them to court will change things.
I didn't actually say, but they rejected me again following my letter I sent them saying "why the different answer when it's the same f-in van as the last one you accepted"

And dont suppose they clarrified what they think of as what looks like a campervan?

kenbw2 · 2019-10-10 13:55:14

Of course not. They did allude to some attachments in the FoI request a few posts back, but I don't think the attachments were included on the website

vaz2121 · 2019-10-10 22:30:53

I made some enquiries towards an newly Converted (Professional convertors) Boxer Camper van on what I was told was an Ex WAV Vehicle that was 4 yrs old 30,000mile and currently registered as a car (mobility vehicle)........
But they were unable for some odd reason to reclass it ............
But would happily present the reclassification application for me should I purchase as it would only take a couple of weeks for return of paperwork..............

At almost £20,000 I declined their kind offer................ Shame I really quite liked it

kenbw2 · 2019-10-11 02:43:25

vaz2121 wrote:

I made some enquiries towards an newly Converted (Professional convertors) Boxer Camper van on what I was told was an Ex WAV Vehicle that was 4 yrs old 30,000mile and currently registered as a car (mobility vehicle)........
But they were unable for some odd reason to reclass it

God sake. Do you have any pictures so we can see what *doesn't* pass?

vaz2121 · 2019-10-11 04:31:41

Now reduced to £18,995...................

Not that I can really afford it any easier now reduced

vaz2121 · 2019-10-11 04:58:41

But apparently this is
According to DVLA..... and has (I assume Class4) MOT History...............

N587GBW DENNIS MOTOR/CARAVN

Check another vehicle
Colour Red
Fuel type Diesel
Date registered 1 April 1996
MOT valid until 26 September 2020

kenbw2 · 2019-10-11 05:33:53

Oh god if that boxer's been rejected then I have no chance.

60mph limits for me then =/

vaz2121 · 2019-10-11 14:30:18

I may just be muddying the waters with speculation of the DVLA refusal to reclassify............
Or maybe it's not one singular thing ..............
As per the norm with a Gov the so called cure "lets carpet bomb the situation that'll fix it"...............
Be it tax or alleged health & Saftey income ........... Loophole

I still believe that first classification of vehicle is crucial ... be it built here or imported as it seems apparent they don't want to re-change it
Also what is a campervan ...........
I've read a letter elswhere that someone posted similar to kenbw2's.... but can't now find the link
Apart from the norm "Doesn't look like Motor Caravan" or whatever ETC.....
In addition it went on to say "this does not stop you using it for such purpose" (Something of a contradiction even in said letters content).......

As shown above the converted coach and class 4 mot and not the usual plate or class 7 MOT.................

Class 4 — Cars, including 3-wheeled vehicles more than 450 kg unladen weight, taxis, minibuses and ambulances up to 12 passenger seats, Goods Vehicles not exceeding 3,000 kg Design Gross Weight (DGW), motor caravans and Dual Purpose Vehicles.

Class 7 MOTs are for commercial vehicles weighing 3,000kg to 3,500kg. Cars and smaller vans require a Class 4 MOT. ... In addition to the usual checks carried out in a regular MOT, the Class 7 includes an additional check of the tyres to ensure they are suitable for the extra weight, as well as a brake efficiency test.

And of course the HGV PLATE for larger vehicles

As much as I would love the space of the Converted coach it's not really the purchase cost (although much less than the Boxer) of either to deal with it's "Feeding them"
and although the bus is converted (class 4MOT ETC) you still need cat C (class 3) on your driving license...............
Unless IIRC the bus is older than 30 years then normal driving license.........

Still as private PSV or HGV what are the rules ? without re-classing............

I have no qualms on putting Remoulds on the rear or drive axle at approx £300 each

But for example......... In 1993/4 Two new Goodyear G290's IIRC for the steer axle cost me £505........ Alegedly discounted for cash rather than account.......

A set of tyres for the bus would stand you £2000 probably
and that's just tyres.............. Nevermind the "Every 6 week or 2 month service or 10,000 km's which ever comes first and safety check every second service" and that's compulsory...and 5gallon oil appox for a change
Some have two oil filters and or a spinner aswell...........
Road tax for me when I started on my own (for my configuration) in early 90's was £1705 for six months

hence the boxer being more attractive in running costs even though it'll now fall into class 7 MOT

I'd better stop but you get the jist

Anchor1979 · 2019-10-21 18:35:05

Just seen this via a Facebook group I'm o :
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati … t-features

tee_cee · 2019-10-21 18:51:36

Amazing - it all looked possible until the high top bit sad

vaz2121 · 2019-10-21 19:24:08

tee_cee wrote:

Amazing - it all looked possible until the high top bit

And does that mean they've just killed off low roof "Camper"vans along with the pop top industry that supplied them for as and when hight/headroom

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#26 2019-09-13 18:59:29

Re: DVLA says my van doesn't look like a camper from the outside

#27 2019-09-14 00:11:09

Re: DVLA says my van doesn't look like a camper from the outside

#28 2019-09-14 00:42:01

Re: DVLA says my van doesn't look like a camper from the outside

#29 2019-09-14 00:48:09

Re: DVLA says my van doesn't look like a camper from the outside

#30 2019-09-14 00:55:00

Re: DVLA says my van doesn't look like a camper from the outside

#31 2019-09-14 09:57:22

Re: DVLA says my van doesn't look like a camper from the outside

#32 2019-09-14 10:07:48

Re: DVLA says my van doesn't look like a camper from the outside

#33 2019-09-14 10:26:30

Re: DVLA says my van doesn't look like a camper from the outside

#34 2019-09-14 13:07:48

Re: DVLA says my van doesn't look like a camper from the outside

#35 2019-09-15 04:09:13

Re: DVLA says my van doesn't look like a camper from the outside

#36 2019-09-16 00:19:25

Re: DVLA says my van doesn't look like a camper from the outside

#37 2019-09-17 11:38:01

Re: DVLA says my van doesn't look like a camper from the outside

#38 2019-10-10 13:33:59

Re: DVLA says my van doesn't look like a camper from the outside

#39 2019-10-10 13:45:34

Re: DVLA says my van doesn't look like a camper from the outside

#40 2019-10-10 13:50:28

Re: DVLA says my van doesn't look like a camper from the outside

#41 2019-10-10 13:55:14

Re: DVLA says my van doesn't look like a camper from the outside

#42 2019-10-10 22:30:53

Re: DVLA says my van doesn't look like a camper from the outside

#43 2019-10-11 02:43:25

Re: DVLA says my van doesn't look like a camper from the outside

#44 2019-10-11 04:31:41

Re: DVLA says my van doesn't look like a camper from the outside

#45 2019-10-11 04:58:41

Re: DVLA says my van doesn't look like a camper from the outside

#46 2019-10-11 05:33:53

Re: DVLA says my van doesn't look like a camper from the outside

#47 2019-10-11 14:30:18

Re: DVLA says my van doesn't look like a camper from the outside

#48 2019-10-21 18:35:05

Re: DVLA says my van doesn't look like a camper from the outside

#49 2019-10-21 18:51:36

Re: DVLA says my van doesn't look like a camper from the outside

#50 2019-10-21 19:24:08

Re: DVLA says my van doesn't look like a camper from the outside

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