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#1 2019-11-25 16:14:51

AnthonyExeter
Member
Registered: 2019-11-25
Posts: 12

Smoking Dispatch

Just wondering if anyone can help me track down a really bad black smoke issue
It;s not at all bad when revving in neutral but when accelerating i'm getting thick black smoke. It idles ok, and when up to speed has plenty of power, at least it feels like it does, no issues on motorway.
Getting a P0299 error and another related to glow plugs but not worried about that.

Any advice would be appreciated

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#2 2019-11-26 00:11:14

vaz2121
Member
From: SW. Scotland
Registered: 2015-08-31
Posts: 727

Re: Smoking Dispatch

Black smoke is a sign of unburnt diesel........
And your P0299 code sugests boost or lack of  possably why black smoke............

Confused when you say "plenty power when up to speed" But what's it like getting there ?..........
 
I'll assume you've checked for or don't hear any boost leaks............

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#3 2019-11-26 08:47:24

AnthonyExeter
Member
Registered: 2019-11-25
Posts: 12

Re: Smoking Dispatch

vaz2121 wrote:

Black smoke is a sign of unburnt diesel........
And your P0299 code sugests boost or lack of  possably why black smoke............

Confused when you say "plenty power when up to speed" But what's it like getting there ?..........
 
I'll assume you've checked for or don't hear any boost leaks............

Never having had a dispatch before or anything with one of these engines its hard to say but it certainly doesnt feel slugish getting up to speed. maybe a little turbo lag but thats all. idle is smooth at 850ish rpm and motorway driving is smooth apart from the brief busts of black smoke when i put my foot down

i'm gussing the wire bound pipes connecting the intercooler are the only places it could be leaking. haven't taken them off to check yet but they do seem ok.

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#4 2019-11-26 09:23:04

tee_cee
Member
Registered: 2016-03-18
Posts: 252

Re: Smoking Dispatch

If the engine is producing smoke the dpf should be catching most of it, so it could be broken. The usual suspect is a boost leak, but I've got the same problem and nobody can find the leak.

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#5 2019-11-26 09:56:44

AnthonyExeter
Member
Registered: 2019-11-25
Posts: 12

Re: Smoking Dispatch

tee_cee wrote:

If the engine is producing smoke the dpf should be catching most of it, so it could be broken. The usual suspect is a boost leak, but I've got the same problem and nobody can find the leak.

#

No dpf on this van, its a 57 plate so too early.

If the turbo was knackered wouldnt it black smoke all the time?
Iv'e had the pipe off the inlet and and spins nice and freely.

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#6 2019-11-26 13:30:01

vaz2121
Member
From: SW. Scotland
Registered: 2015-08-31
Posts: 727

Re: Smoking Dispatch

AnthonyExeter wrote:

No dpf on this van, its a 57 plate so too early.

If the turbo was knackered wouldnt it black smoke all the time?
Iv'e had the pipe off the inlet and and spins nice and freely.


Two things  really...........

Unless youv'e actually checked Don't assume NO DPF (To early)..........
My ill fated 307 HDI had a DPF(FAP) and it was a late 2003 reg..............

It's not universally to do with age ...........


Secondly. the Turbo only supplies boost on demand ....... So no not all the time (a different coulour of smoke maybe)

If you've been able to Spin the turbo impeller what was the end float like ?..........
{Did it have a lot of side to side movement or slack wobbley when you spun it up ?}
Were you able to see if any obvious damage to "Fins" on impeller to suggest a foreign object ?.......

Again Lots of reasons why .......
eg..... Is it a variable vane turbo?..........
AKA......Variable-geometry turbochargers /VGT's,  variable nozzle turbines/VNT's

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#7 2019-11-26 14:54:02

AnthonyExeter
Member
Registered: 2019-11-25
Posts: 12

Re: Smoking Dispatch

vaz2121 wrote:
AnthonyExeter wrote:

No dpf on this van, its a 57 plate so too early.

If the turbo was knackered wouldnt it black smoke all the time?
Iv'e had the pipe off the inlet and and spins nice and freely.


Two things  really...........

Unless youv'e actually checked Don't assume NO DPF (To early)..........
My ill fated 307 HDI had a DPF(FAP) and it was a late 2003 reg..............

It's not universally to do with age ...........


Secondly. the Turbo only supplies boost on demand ....... So no not all the time (a different coulour of smoke maybe)

If you've been able to Spin the turbo impeller what was the end float like ?..........
{Did it have a lot of side to side movement or slack wobbley when you spun it up ?}
Were you able to see if any obvious damage to "Fins" on impeller to suggest a foreign object ?.......

Again Lots of reasons why .......
eg..... Is it a variable vane turbo?..........
AKA......Variable-geometry turbochargers /VGT's,  variable nozzle turbines/VNT's

it's a 90hp so been told its not a VGT
the impeller has maybe 1mm of side play , very very minimal.
the commercial side took longer to adopt the DPF. Someone on another forum checked the VIN and said it didnt have one

cant see inside very well, i'll have another look when i can get out and take the pipes off again.

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#8 2019-11-26 16:24:31

Anchor1979
Member
From: Congleton, Cheshire
Registered: 2016-04-02
Posts: 84
Website

Re: Smoking Dispatch

Hi,
I also had a black smoke issue with my 09 1.6 expert. Same engine I believe.

To cure mine was a long and painful experience at least financially. I ended up replacing the following:
Turbo
Turbo oil feed pipe
Boost pipes to inter cooler
Air inlet manifold
4 injectors
Egr valve gasket

Alas, she still smokes a little but the black smoke has gone.

I would check all the above, I found oil in the inter cooler and needed up having it professionally cleaned and tested. Took the injectors out which is when I found the air inlet manifold to be knackered, and oil in 2 of the injectors. Found holes in the boost pipes, so replaced them.

Only when I'd put it all back together with new parts did I then find the leak from the egr valve, so took that off and found that the seal was virtually nonexistent apart from he Carbon build up almost blocking it.

Hope this helps you a little.

Mike

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#9 2019-11-26 17:06:04

vaz2121
Member
From: SW. Scotland
Registered: 2015-08-31
Posts: 727

Re: Smoking Dispatch

Your pobably right......
With it being a 90Bhp motor ......
I'd also say a "Normal" Turbo.......

Most likely it was Higher output motors that had VGT and DPF's...........
Both across commercial and Private cars..... All to do with emissions.........
I'm also possitive all diesel vehicles from euro 5 have DPF's irrespective ......
At a guess your on euro 4{possitive Mk1 HDI's were euro 4 too)

The Turbo sounds as though it has some wear but probably within tolerance .........
{Give aways burning oil and blue haze} Usually Turbo's give up in dramatic fashion with the oil seals letting go after tell tails of the former {excesive end float...Foreign objects etc}.........

My DW8 [Non Turbo] is euro 3 But is still fitted with a Diesel Cat..........
I'd also dout that's your issue {Worth ruling out if it's breaking up?}

So again back to sounds boost leak.....

I take it with 90BHP.. No intercooler

Is it the 1.6 HDI?........ I thought on 07 we were still on the 2.0 HDI's

Anchor1979 : Has a point as there all an update of one another for again for emissions are they not?

{I'd always thought 90Bhp was car .... The smallest Van HDI option was 110 BHP}....
you do learn something everyday

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#10 2019-11-26 17:28:04

AnthonyExeter
Member
Registered: 2019-11-25
Posts: 12

Re: Smoking Dispatch

Defo a 90hp one, it's on the V5

Intercooler is an aircooled one beside the rad.

When up to speed it doesn't smoke, just under acceleration load.

guess i could pop the intercooler out and check, could get a good look at the hoses then.

I have got a blanking plate for the EGR.

it's so annoying because apart from the black smoke it all seems good, fuel economy seems great, idles fine.

when revved in neutral i get a whisp of black smoke but just what you'd expect from a diesel.

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#11 2019-11-27 01:45:41

vaz2121
Member
From: SW. Scotland
Registered: 2015-08-31
Posts: 727

Re: Smoking Dispatch

Most diesels will smoke a touch when revved........ Hence revving it on MOT test with light meter up its jacksie...........

But it's when under load and working is when it would induce smoke ..........

But

It could be something or nothing but something appears to be not quite 100%.......
That would be an idea to check all pipes inc joints
{with intercooler out I'd be inclined to give it the once over health check.... internaly aswell....... No Brainer If your going to all that effort}....

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#12 2019-11-27 09:41:21

tee_cee
Member
Registered: 2016-03-18
Posts: 252

Re: Smoking Dispatch

Regarding the P0299 code, I had this when I first seen the smoke, and thought it was related. However when I later looked at the logs I could see that it was triggered when the measured boost was HIGHER than the requested boost.This would not cause the smoking but indicated that the turbo was sticking - probably due to prolonged high soot levels. I also had the inlet manifold replaced with a unit with the same (50k) miles on it, and I could see that there was much more carbon deposits on the old one. It looked more like the 120k ones that I could see on ebay.
I my case the dpf was doing a fantastic job of hiding this from me - until it broke.
Runs great though and no fault codes.

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#13 2019-11-27 10:08:34

AnthonyExeter
Member
Registered: 2019-11-25
Posts: 12

Re: Smoking Dispatch

don't fancy the job of removing the inlet manifold. would have rather it was the turbo.

when you replaced it, wouldn't it have been easier/cheaper to clean the old one?

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#14 2019-11-27 14:46:17

tee_cee
Member
Registered: 2016-03-18
Posts: 252

Re: Smoking Dispatch

I've decided that my days of tinkering are over, so I have somone else do yhe work. So if he tells me the turbo is broken,  then it's a new (refurbihed) one. As it happens he broke the manifold after ttightening down the injector cover a bit too much. So that's the only reason it was replaced.
I'm thinking maybe another smoke test might be in order, in case something was missed. Unfortunately with these new engines, it seems to me, I'f there is no fault codes, people start guessing and play parts bingo

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#15 2019-11-27 16:11:23

AnthonyExeter
Member
Registered: 2019-11-25
Posts: 12

Re: Smoking Dispatch

well, here's an update. cleared fault codes and went for a longish drive, rescanned and only P1351 showing now but sill black smoking. little search has shown people saying this could be a vacuum leak or even cam sensor error. I'd only seen it associated with glow plugs.

Anyone got any input?

here's a pic of the boost/vacuum and inlet pressure maximums. It's boosting to about 18psi, is this right? at idle vacuum is between 0.7-1.0


https://photos.app.goo.gl/xqGSAzDxJVWn1zQT8

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#16 2019-11-28 00:24:15

vaz2121
Member
From: SW. Scotland
Registered: 2015-08-31
Posts: 727

Re: Smoking Dispatch

P1351 code for a diesel does point to a duff plug and or relay issue ...........

http://www.pikit.co.uk/peugeotmt/psa%20 … codes.html

I would suggest 18psi of boost is a little high for a standard setting It could mean a restriction or someones been fiddling ......
I Could be wrong I'd say an Hdi wastgate is not controled in the old school Method of shortening the wastegate actuator rod to increase a bit extra boost

Diesels do tend to be on the higher side of boost compared to a petrol engines.............

But i'd think nearer 10 -- 13psi boost from factory ..............

probably wants to go on a citroen's diagnostics (Lexia ?) get a reading and see what fault codes you get and a sqidge at the live parameters hopefully get some hard evidence as it's getting a bit guess work now.........

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#17 2019-11-28 15:47:11

AnthonyExeter
Member
Registered: 2019-11-25
Posts: 12

Re: Smoking Dispatch

vaz2121 wrote:

P1351 code for a diesel does point to a duff plug and or relay issue ...........

http://www.pikit.co.uk/peugeotmt/psa%20 … codes.html

I would suggest 18psi of boost is a little high for a standard setting It could mean a restriction or someones been fiddling ......
I Could be wrong I'd say an Hdi wastgate is not controled in the old school Method of shortening the wastegate actuator rod to increase a bit extra boost

Diesels do tend to be on the higher side of boost compared to a petrol engines.............

But i'd think nearer 10 -- 13psi boost from factory ..............

probably wants to go on a citroen's diagnostics (Lexia ?) get a reading and see what fault codes you get and a sqidge at the live parameters hopefully get some hard evidence as it's getting a bit guess work now.........


Maybe the pressure sensor is off, not sure if that can happen. If it's reading is too high that might explain the black smoke as it would over fuelling.

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#18 2019-11-29 12:38:06

vaz2121
Member
From: SW. Scotland
Registered: 2015-08-31
Posts: 727

Re: Smoking Dispatch

possably the pressure sensors used on the comon rail it's self have been known to give issues ............
Hence why you'll need a good code reading to give you something of a reference point/Base line..........

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#19 2019-11-29 13:36:24

AnthonyExeter
Member
Registered: 2019-11-25
Posts: 12

Re: Smoking Dispatch

I've been trying to take note of the power delivery and it maybe does seem a bit laggy and then surges. Would this point to anything specific? Crazy that all this smoke and not once has the EML come on.

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#20 2019-11-30 02:16:09

tee_cee
Member
Registered: 2016-03-18
Posts: 252

Re: Smoking Dispatch

I did consider the pressure sensor - however the ECU should use this to trim the values set for the pump. If the readings drift to far the a fault would be generated. I did mention the pressure sensor to the Delphi agent in Uxbridge and he said he had only ever seen one fail.
If the MAF sensor is dirty/faulty it can report back incorrect air intake. You can temporarily disconnect it and the ecu will default to calculated values. You can drive and see if the smoke is still there. The maf error codes will need to be reset again.

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#21 2019-11-30 10:05:21

AnthonyExeter
Member
Registered: 2019-11-25
Posts: 12

Re: Smoking Dispatch

tee_cee wrote:

I did consider the pressure sensor - however the ECU should use this to trim the values set for the pump. If the readings drift to far the a fault would be generated. I did mention the pressure sensor to the Delphi agent in Uxbridge and he said he had only ever seen one fail.
If the MAF sensor is dirty/faulty it can report back incorrect air intake. You can temporarily disconnect it and the ecu will default to calculated values. You can drive and see if the smoke is still there. The maf error codes will need to be reset again.

I did swap the MAF sensor for a used one and got EXACTLY the same reading so thinking the chances of getting one thats off by the same amount would be low.

With the MAP sensor, maybe it's not off far enough to throw an error but enough to throw off fuel/air mix. Just a thought.

Got an EGR blanking plate sitting on my bench. might pop that in this weekend. from what i've read the early engines don't trigger an EML when fitted.

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#22 2019-12-01 00:33:03

Tiree
Administrator
From: Galloway
Registered: 2013-09-20
Posts: 266

Re: Smoking Dispatch

I have to say that this sounds pretty reminiscent of when my turbo was on its way out [eventually changed it at around 150k miles].

Bursts of black smoke were noticeable under load in 2nd & 3rd [probably just less visible in higher gears due to speed] .. I pretty much ignored this for about 15,000 miles .. and then I began to notice sluggishness in the performance and short fluctuations in power too. Eventually, driving up to Aviemore for a week, the van was beginning to feel like it was going to give it up completely. Really compromised performance and black smoke visible even giving it a little power in 5th.

I was dreading the drive home that whole holiday but it crawled over the line and it went straight into the garage.

Recon turbo was £400 odd fitted. 40,000 miles further down the road and all still fine.

T


2006 Citroen Dispatch 2.0HDi bought in July 2013 - Partial camper conversion ........

mini_citroen-dispatch2.jpeg

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#23 2019-12-01 09:31:32

tee_cee
Member
Registered: 2016-03-18
Posts: 252

Re: Smoking Dispatch

With the map sensor, again the ecu knows what to expect. So you would get an error - so possibly the P0299 is low boost pressure measured by the MAP.
Blocking the EGR is worth doing - just been reading elsewhere about a fault where high exhaust pressure was pushing the EGR valve slightly open under aceleration, when it should be closed. In this case you would expect the ecu to work out something is wrong , but it didn't. You would see this in the data logs, assuming the EGR has position sensor.

Last edited by tee_cee (2019-12-01 09:32:09)

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#24 2019-12-01 10:41:49

AnthonyExeter
Member
Registered: 2019-11-25
Posts: 12

Re: Smoking Dispatch

Tiree wrote:

I have to say that this sounds pretty reminiscent of when my turbo was on its way out [eventually changed it at around 150k miles].

Bursts of black smoke were noticeable under load in 2nd & 3rd [probably just less visible in higher gears due to speed] .. I pretty much ignored this for about 15,000 miles .. and then I began to notice sluggishness in the performance and short fluctuations in power too. Eventually, driving up to Aviemore for a week, the van was beginning to feel like it was going to give it up completely. Really compromised performance and black smoke visible even giving it a little power in 5th.

I was dreading the drive home that whole holiday but it crawled over the line and it went straight into the garage.

Recon turbo was £400 odd fitted. 40,000 miles further down the road and all still fine.

T

at least the turbo is an easy swap. easier than messing around at the back of the engine.
might start looking around at prices for one, it's at 130k so maybe about time.

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#25 2019-12-01 10:44:23

AnthonyExeter
Member
Registered: 2019-11-25
Posts: 12

Re: Smoking Dispatch

tee_cee wrote:

With the map sensor, again the ecu knows what to expect. So you would get an error - so possibly the P0299 is low boost pressure measured by the MAP.
Blocking the EGR is worth doing - just been reading elsewhere about a fault where high exhaust pressure was pushing the EGR valve slightly open under aceleration, when it should be closed. In this case you would expect the ecu to work out something is wrong , but it didn't. You would see this in the data logs, assuming the EGR has position sensor.

If i can drag myself off the sofa today and out into the cold i'm gonna fit the blanking plate so will see how that goes.

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