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#1 2020-07-05 16:54:35

woodbine
Member
From: Bristol, UK
Registered: 2018-11-01
Posts: 77

Repair Options For Sill Rust

After 16 years of British weather, the ends of my sills are starting to get rusty. Mainly bubbling behind the layer of stonechip paint on the outer sills. One option is just to throw a plate on and daub it with undeseal - but I don't want to do this as the rest of the van is rust free and quite tidy. Are new sills the only option? Can the sill ends be repaired by letting in fabricated repair sections, grinding the welds then filling and repainting? Will this be strong enough for structural sills that also carry the jacking points? I'm going to get a good body shop to do the work, but want to know what others have done and recommend before making enquiries.

The nearside sill isn't too bad, just minor small bubbles either end. The offside is perfect at the front, but worst at the rear. The pics below show the worst one - offside rear. The long hole by the jacking point is looking upwards and this hole is on the bottom of the inner sill, just inboard of the long welded seam that runs the length of the bottom of sill - joining the bottom of inner and outer sills.

If I did have to have full sills, what are they likely to cost, inc fitting and paint? I'm in Bristol.

DSC01601.jpegDSC01596.jpeg
DSC01595.jpegDSC01599.jpeg

Last edited by woodbine (2020-07-05 16:57:22)


Fiat Scudo 2004 (54) 2.0 Jtd Dynamic Van

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#2 2020-07-05 19:40:46

JohnDragonMan
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From: Derby, East Midlands, UK
Registered: 2020-06-02
Posts: 84
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Re: Repair Options For Sill Rust

oh man i feel for you. have you seen my van thread in the camper conversion section? ive just done both of my sills and they never looked bad, sadly ended up being bad.
i tell everyone i meet that if your sills look OK, fill them with rust proofing like Dynax S50.

i naturally recommend a full cut out and weld new in but it can be a costly job. if you go down the wire wheel back and plate over,  make sure you just pump rust proofing into it.

should see what i have in store for mine when i get it road worthy again. i am going to tape up all of the sills drain holes and pump hot dynax into them. im going to make sure it will never rust again.


- JohnDragonMan
Notice: I have the tendency to void warranties, blow fuses, cause fires, and other fun stuff.
Words of wisdom: There's always user serviceable parts inside. Molten metal "hot". In my defence, i was left unsupervised. "Oh that shouldn't have happened".
My Crazy Mk2 2005 Dispatch Camper Project big_smile

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#3 2020-07-05 23:40:42

woodbine
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From: Bristol, UK
Registered: 2018-11-01
Posts: 77

Re: Repair Options For Sill Rust

Just had a look at your videos John. Yours looks a fair bit worse than mine - or am I kidding myself and when they get attacked with the hammer they will be a lot worse than I think?

Would you agree that replacing the whole sills is overkill, when it's the ends that are starting to go? Looks like whole sill renewal is quite a major task. So do what you did - get the body shop to buy sills and cut out what they need? Or could they fabricate the sections themselves, inc. outer sill? Should a body shop be able to get more or less invisible repair using sections from a new sill? Would like it to look reasonably close to original as poss. Surprised there aren't repair sections available if these always go in the same area.

And yes, gallon of rustproofing afterwards.    wink

Last edited by woodbine (2020-07-05 23:52:10)


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#4 2020-07-06 00:17:09

woodbine
Member
From: Bristol, UK
Registered: 2018-11-01
Posts: 77

Re: Repair Options For Sill Rust

Just had a look at the Dynax X50. Do you use the aerosols, or 5 litre can with gun and compressor?


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#5 2020-07-06 14:58:54

JohnDragonMan
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From: Derby, East Midlands, UK
Registered: 2020-06-02
Posts: 84
Website

Re: Repair Options For Sill Rust

its pretty much the way i did it, bought the sill, cut out the bad and welded the new in. no patching. no covering. i absolutely hate filler but i did use some to make it look nice after it was all painted up then painted again.. it came out great and it looks factory now. will have to get some photos.
yeah its what i would do. buy the sill and cut off what you need. theres a good chance you will have to have new jacking points made its only a flat bit of steel. i had to remake mine.

so i am going to use both types of dynax S50..  i have sprayed the aerosol can inside it as best as i can but i am also going to use the 5 litre can stuff too. my usual method is to use a in tank high pressure car fuel pump with 6mm nylon pneumatic air line with a screw in one end and a red hot pin poked through the last few cm to make a 360 degree pray nozzle. i use an old electric deep fryer and set it to about 50.c with it full of dynax. i then tape up all of the drain holes or use a piece of roof rain guttering under the sill to catch all of the run out and channel it back into the fryer.. i will run the nozzle and pipe all the way to one end of the inside sill and run the pump then very slowly draw it back. as you can imagine it absolutely floods the sills with rust proofing.. thankfully the inside of the van is completely sealed from the sills so you dont get the insides covered with the stuff. i did this on an old Fiat Panda 4x4 (still have it big_smile) and the jet of rust proofing shot all the way up the inside of the B pillar and splattered across the roof.

have you seen the PDF review of dynax S-50 compared to other brand rust proofers..  its pretty impressive stuff.

check it out here

make sure you see the end results. got to admit i was a waxoyl user before. now im this haha.


- JohnDragonMan
Notice: I have the tendency to void warranties, blow fuses, cause fires, and other fun stuff.
Words of wisdom: There's always user serviceable parts inside. Molten metal "hot". In my defence, i was left unsupervised. "Oh that shouldn't have happened".
My Crazy Mk2 2005 Dispatch Camper Project big_smile

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#6 2020-07-06 21:04:48

woodbine
Member
From: Bristol, UK
Registered: 2018-11-01
Posts: 77

Re: Repair Options For Sill Rust

That sounds like a great method, John. If you were nearer  would be trying to hire you to do it for me. I've got one of those wax injection guns with length of plastic pipe to push into a hole in the sill. Runs off a compressor. Used it on my Carlton and Rover P4 some years ago. Unfortunately, not even Waxoyl could stop my Carlton rotting away.    yikes

Just thinking about the best way of getting the pipe into the sill. I'm assuming you have to do 2 runs throughout the length of the sill because there is a plate running down the centre seperating inner from outer sill?

So, which is the best way to get the plastic pipe into the sill to do inner and outer? Guessing that the inner section can be done by putting the tube into the rubber grommets on the inside of the inner sill? Then the outer section will needs a 10mm hole drilled on the end of the sill inside wheelarch? Then put a plastic rustproofing bung in hole after? Or do you go in some other way?

P.S. The episode with the Panda made me laugh. No need to rustproof the headlining - that 's one of the few things on a Fiat that you can be sure won't rust.    wink

Last edited by woodbine (2020-07-06 21:10:12)


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#7 2020-07-06 22:23:18

AB_70
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Registered: 2020-04-28
Posts: 30

Re: Repair Options For Sill Rust

Ah great thread here!

The chap I bought my Dispatch off welded plates in the sills get it over the MOT line. To say it’s not a pretty job would be a massive understatement, it’s horrendous!!

I’ve been toying with a few ideas, from trying to smooth over with filler, to a total sill replacement. I hadn’t actually thought about buying sills and chopping to suit. I like that idea, makes sense. Most of the steel is in good shape, it’s just a few hundred mm front end. 

Cheers!

Last edited by AB_70 (2020-07-06 22:24:57)

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#8 2020-07-06 23:00:36

woodbine
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From: Bristol, UK
Registered: 2018-11-01
Posts: 77

Re: Repair Options For Sill Rust

Welcome AB_70. Yes, unfortunately this is a problem that aflicts many of us. I think if the sills were just the same curve all the way along, we could get away with just making up a section of curved sheet. Unfortunately these sills flare out a bit at the end - just where the rot is. Makes it a bit more complex to get that shape by doing it yourself. Makes sense to take what you need off a new sill.

Looking at the sills, it looks like a time consuming and complex job that may not be economically viable on vehicles which are at least 14 years old. Looks quite a major install, sliding doors need to come off and rails by the look of it.

As the rest of my van is rot free and quite tidy for one 16 years old, I wanted it to look good. Definitely didn't want the typical garage repair of a plate thrown on and smeared in underseal. Luckily the Corona virus MOT extension gave me another 6 months to October before the tester gets busy with his toffee hammer. Bit of time to find the right person to do a nice repair.

Last edited by woodbine (2020-07-06 23:01:15)


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#9 2020-07-07 04:22:39

JohnDragonMan
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From: Derby, East Midlands, UK
Registered: 2020-06-02
Posts: 84
Website

Re: Repair Options For Sill Rust

cool thing is, those bungs that cover the bottom rail bolts go through both skins of the sill. the very back, and middle skins. so from them you can get the rust proofing pipe in to both outer and inner parts of inside the sills. the dynax spray pipe only just fit past the bolt head to get into the outer part but it did do it with some wiggling.
drilling a hole somewhere will work but you have to make sure its somewhere that can be easy to rust proof as that will start to rot out.

though the following is pictures from both sides of my van, the repair was the same no matter the side.

it started off with me noticing the seam around the jacking point had gone a little "fat". caused by the way rust expands. well i could not help myself but poke around with a small screw driver. i ended up chasing rust.
mini_20200514_154836.jpeg
mini_20200514_154807.jpeg

i set to and fixed it, started off with the good old wire wheel.
mini_20200616_144721.jpeg

the inside of mine looked like this and i had only a tiny bit of visible external rust. it was only found as i knew what to look for
mini_20200609_155551.jpeg

the repair job became rather large but not impossible. the hardest part is bending the new metal to shape. all i have is a 4 inch vice (i snapped my 8 inch vice in half sadface.jpg)
mini_20200609_184541.jpeg

to be fair the fixing of the rear skin of the sills was easy. its pretty flat panels the centre skin was not so bad too. but i tell you, if i didnt have a replacement outer skin it would have been a right mess to get it right with uggh filler.

in the end it worked out pretty well. i hid my welds well by making sure that they were always going to be in a recess. and i did end up using filler over it just to be visually pleasing.

worked out quite nice.

mini_20200615_170543.jpeg

though it looks rough, when you run your hand over it, you cant feel any bumps or ridges where the metal starts and filler stops.

for a first time go i think i did pretty good. rust proofing however is key. get it sealed as soon as its dry.

did do a video on it.. hmm...

actually i did 2 parts to it. just skip through parts. i like to go into detail.. makes my videos boring.


hope this helps..


lets not get on the topic of behind the rear bumper in the corners just after the rear wheels shall we?

Last edited by JohnDragonMan (2020-07-07 04:24:13)


- JohnDragonMan
Notice: I have the tendency to void warranties, blow fuses, cause fires, and other fun stuff.
Words of wisdom: There's always user serviceable parts inside. Molten metal "hot". In my defence, i was left unsupervised. "Oh that shouldn't have happened".
My Crazy Mk2 2005 Dispatch Camper Project big_smile

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#10 2020-07-08 22:06:49

woodbine
Member
From: Bristol, UK
Registered: 2018-11-01
Posts: 77

Re: Repair Options For Sill Rust

Sill-2.jpeg

Thanks again, John. Once again, you've gone above and beyond. Just wanted to confirm which bungs we're talking about. They're the one in the pic (arrowed)? I was slightly confused when you mentioned bolts inside them, but studying your excellent vid, I'm guessing these bolts are the ones holding the bottom rail of the sliding door on?

If I remember rightly, these rubber bungs on the inner sill are dotted all the way along it's length? So if I understand you correctly, I can remove the bungs and poke the plastic rustproofing pipe in the bung hole and I can either proof the inner section of the sill, or there's another hole directly opposite the bung hole (going through the inner dividing section that runs the length of sill) and I can push the pipe further through this hole and proof the outer sill section? Presumably all the bung holes will let me proof inner and outer sections?

So, no need to drill any holes? Sounds like this would make a very easy job of properly proofing the sills. Also when you say you can just get the Dynax tube in, you're using the aerosol version? Do these aerosols give good coverage, and how many would I need to properly proof both sills?

Wish I'd known how easy it is years ago. I would have gunned some proofer into those bung holes every 5 years and not have the problems I have now.    sad

Apologies for all the questions. Nice job on the sills by the way. That's how I want mine to end up - repaired so no one notices, but above all a good, strong fix.

Last edited by woodbine (2020-07-08 22:22:58)


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#11 2020-07-09 21:54:28

JohnDragonMan
Member
From: Derby, East Midlands, UK
Registered: 2020-06-02
Posts: 84
Website

Re: Repair Options For Sill Rust

ahh yes sorry for not being clear. yeah these are the bungs. theres some under the sliding door as yes they are for the sliding door rail bolts. when you pull the bug off theres a hole the size of the bung going through both "skins" of the sill. it can be tricky to get the pipe past the bolt head but its doable. helps if you kinda lie on your back and use a mirror and torch to see whats going on in the hole as you poke the pipe in.

you can see in the picture that i dynaxed this first thing before i checked for rust hence the dynax that was coming out of the bung holes before i fitted them.

still need to paint mine they are still in primer hmm


- JohnDragonMan
Notice: I have the tendency to void warranties, blow fuses, cause fires, and other fun stuff.
Words of wisdom: There's always user serviceable parts inside. Molten metal "hot". In my defence, i was left unsupervised. "Oh that shouldn't have happened".
My Crazy Mk2 2005 Dispatch Camper Project big_smile

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#12 2020-07-10 09:10:51

woodbine
Member
From: Bristol, UK
Registered: 2018-11-01
Posts: 77

Re: Repair Options For Sill Rust

That should make things a bit easier. Did you use Dynax in aerosols and do you thing these are good enough to treat the sills properly?

Next week I'm going to a couple of recommended body shops to get some quotes. Will see how I get on.


Fiat Scudo 2004 (54) 2.0 Jtd Dynamic Van

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#13 2020-07-11 00:18:37

JohnDragonMan
Member
From: Derby, East Midlands, UK
Registered: 2020-06-02
Posts: 84
Website

Re: Repair Options For Sill Rust

ahh yes. i used the aerosol type. you can only get so much in as it will start to run out but i did lay it in thick and sprayed it in sometimes twice in some places after a day or so of me spraying it in before.

in total i used about 4-5 tins. however i spayed it everywhere. from memory i did both sills, both chassis rails (bumper to bumper), all behind the rear bumper in that cavity the bolt for the spare wheel cadge goes through, every bit of cavity that goes across the under side of the van from chassis rail to chassis rail, all inside the rear axle, all inside the front sub frame, inside the front cross member (3 skins inside that just like the sills), all behind the front bumper and in the cavities behind it, all up inside the A,B,C and D pillars, inside every door, above the front windscreen inside, all around the filler pipe inside, all around the rear arches inside.. pretty much everywhere condensate could pool has been coated in this stuff.

edit
also if you buy the stuff i recommend going direct to >Bilt Hamber's website<, you get free post if you spend over £60. and believe me, its easy to do when a company like that makes such good products. lol
/edit

im leaving nothing to chance with my van and rust. after having old fiats, yeah it becomes a paranoia.  roll

pretty sure the thing would float over to france if i ever decide become financially able to tour europe.

Last edited by JohnDragonMan (2020-07-11 00:24:50)


- JohnDragonMan
Notice: I have the tendency to void warranties, blow fuses, cause fires, and other fun stuff.
Words of wisdom: There's always user serviceable parts inside. Molten metal "hot". In my defence, i was left unsupervised. "Oh that shouldn't have happened".
My Crazy Mk2 2005 Dispatch Camper Project big_smile

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#14 2020-07-11 22:16:41

woodbine
Member
From: Bristol, UK
Registered: 2018-11-01
Posts: 77

Re: Repair Options For Sill Rust

Wow! You certainly put the hours in. Don't think you've left anything to chance with your van. Looks like a couple of cans should be enough for my sills. May do other areas as time allows, but the sills seem to be the Achilles heel on these vans. Rarely see one with rust anywhere else and if you do, it's usually down to a poor body repair.

Will let you know how I get on with quotes and the repairs. Hoping my sills aren't as  bad as your were, as mine haven't been repaired before.

Thanks and look forward to following the improvments you're doing.

Last edited by woodbine (2020-07-11 22:17:08)


Fiat Scudo 2004 (54) 2.0 Jtd Dynamic Van

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#15 2020-07-17 19:55:56

woodbine
Member
From: Bristol, UK
Registered: 2018-11-01
Posts: 77

Re: Repair Options For Sill Rust

Got a very good body shop that also does restoration work to have a look. He's going to cut out the rust, weld in new metal, make good and then finish in original met grey stonechip finish. Says it will look like new. Doing 3 ends of sills - front end of offside sill is ok - for now. Will also check rest of sills for any dodgy areas. £360 inc VAT which I thought was very good. Good sign is he's really busy - have to wait until end of Aug. Not a problem as the MOT isn't until Oct.


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#16 2020-07-18 02:19:13

JohnDragonMan
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From: Derby, East Midlands, UK
Registered: 2020-06-02
Posts: 84
Website

Re: Repair Options For Sill Rust

heh thats a good price! i was quoted £1700 here. that was taking it to a few garages... so glad i did it myself haha


- JohnDragonMan
Notice: I have the tendency to void warranties, blow fuses, cause fires, and other fun stuff.
Words of wisdom: There's always user serviceable parts inside. Molten metal "hot". In my defence, i was left unsupervised. "Oh that shouldn't have happened".
My Crazy Mk2 2005 Dispatch Camper Project big_smile

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#17 2020-07-18 15:22:33

woodbine
Member
From: Bristol, UK
Registered: 2018-11-01
Posts: 77

Re: Repair Options For Sill Rust

Not sure if your area is expensive, but £1700 does sound a lot. Would expect two whole new sills for that money. Either that, or they quoted high because they didn't want the job for some reason. The price I got seems too cheap, but I'll report back when it's done.


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#18 2020-07-27 01:13:11

JohnDragonMan
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From: Derby, East Midlands, UK
Registered: 2020-06-02
Posts: 84
Website

Re: Repair Options For Sill Rust

any update Woodbine?


- JohnDragonMan
Notice: I have the tendency to void warranties, blow fuses, cause fires, and other fun stuff.
Words of wisdom: There's always user serviceable parts inside. Molten metal "hot". In my defence, i was left unsupervised. "Oh that shouldn't have happened".
My Crazy Mk2 2005 Dispatch Camper Project big_smile

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#19 2020-07-27 16:06:54

woodbine
Member
From: Bristol, UK
Registered: 2018-11-01
Posts: 77

Re: Repair Options For Sill Rust

No update yet, John. Bloke who's doing the work couldn't do it 'til 27th Aug. As he's supposed to be very good, I decided to wait rather than look elsewhere. Suppose it's a good sign if he's that busy.

Will update when job done. Van is going in this Weds somewhere else for change of brake/clutch fluid and try to get air con to work. Same place that did a good job on the timinig and aux belts - seems to know his stuff.

Last edited by woodbine (2020-07-27 16:09:22)


Fiat Scudo 2004 (54) 2.0 Jtd Dynamic Van

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#20 2020-07-27 23:03:02

JohnDragonMan
Member
From: Derby, East Midlands, UK
Registered: 2020-06-02
Posts: 84
Website

Re: Repair Options For Sill Rust

ahh good news. let me know how it goes big_smile


- JohnDragonMan
Notice: I have the tendency to void warranties, blow fuses, cause fires, and other fun stuff.
Words of wisdom: There's always user serviceable parts inside. Molten metal "hot". In my defence, i was left unsupervised. "Oh that shouldn't have happened".
My Crazy Mk2 2005 Dispatch Camper Project big_smile

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