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brman

Member

Registered: 2020-08-10

Posts: 36

2003 Scudo 2.0JTD crank bolt problem?

Hi
I have just registered here as I have a 2003 (07/2002 built) scudo 2.0 JTD (DW10CTED). It used to be my work van but has been off the road for a few years so needs a bit of TLC. The longer term plan is to turn it into a mini camper but I need to sort the basics first.

So...... The crank pulley just started rattling so I decided to change it. However it took literally 5 minutes with an impact wrench to get the crank bolt out (working it back and forwards). Having done so it needs an impact wrench to put it back in again past the first few threads. ie it feels like it is cross threaded.
That in itself is odd, but even odder, there is no sign of damage to the threads on the bolt, nor debris in the threads. ie no sign of cross threading. However there are signs that the crank pulley was moving against the timing gear as shown by the wear marks on the back of the pulley plus wear on the key in the crank. So I am wondering if the rattle was actually a loose pulley, not a failed one.

So my questions:
1) Does this look like the right bolt? (it is M14x1.5, 70mm long.
2) Any reason why it should be so tight in the crank? Could it just be over-use of thread locker?
3) My plan is to get a 14x1.5 tap and clean out the crank threads. Good/bad idea?
and finally
4) On refitting, what is the correct torque? I have read 110Nm but also 70Nm+62degrees which implies a stretch bolt. Does this mean the bolt needs replacing?

Any advice gratefully received!

vaz2121

Member

From: Glasgow Living:~ SW. Scotland

Registered: 2015-08-31

Posts: 1,311

Re: 2003 Scudo 2.0JTD crank bolt problem?

Hi
I have just registered here as I have a 2003 (07/2002 built) scudo 2.0 JTD (DW10CTED). It used to be my work van but has been off the road for a few years so needs a bit of TLC. The longer term plan is to turn it into a mini camper but I need to sort the basics first.

So...... The crank pulley just started rattling so I decided to change it. However it took literally 5 minutes with an impact wrench to get the crank bolt out (working it back and forwards). Having done so it needs an impact wrench to put it back in again past the first few threads. ie it feels like it is cross threaded.
That in itself is odd, but even odder, there is no sign of damage to the threads on the bolt, nor debris in the threads. ie no sign of cross threading. However there are signs that the crank pulley was moving against the timing gear as shown by the wear marks on the back of the pulley plus wear on the key in the crank. So I am wondering if the rattle was actually a loose pulley, not a failed one.
https://dispatchexpertscudo.org.uk/foru … 2243-2.jpg

So my questions:
1) Does this look like the right bolt? (it is M14x1.5, 70mm long.
2) Any reason why it should be so tight in the crank? Could it just be over-use of thread locker?
3) My plan is to get a 14x1.5 tap and clean out the crank threads. Good/bad idea?
and finally
4) On refitting, what is the correct torque? I have read 110Nm but also 70Nm+62degrees which implies a stretch bolt. Does this mean the bolt needs replacing?

Any advice gratefully received!

Hi...........I'm unable to Say it's the right or wrong bolt........

But Is the Rattle the reason it was parked up ? .........
Was any major work from your memorey in that area? .........
Is there wear on pulley or woodruff key in and around there? .........

You may need when you have identified the thread/bolt size/pitch to use a thread chaser to clean things up a bit............
If as you say no damage to bolt (sounds lucky) ...........
Maybe it wasn't tight enough and you need to chase out the threads anyway and clean it up  and make sure it's got enough Torque...........

Obviously addressing any wear or slop in woodruff key............
BTW........ MK1 Vehicles are in other section this here is next gen Vans

Edit:
It's just occurd to me that you'd need to remove that bolt and pulley for a cam belt change .....
So 99% of above still relevant but needs good inspection as I take it MR nobody will know how long it was like that for if that's the case

Last edited by vaz2121 (2020-08-10 16:15:04)

brman

Member

Registered: 2020-08-10

Posts: 36

Re: 2003 Scudo 2.0JTD crank bolt problem?

Hi...........I'm unable to Say it's the right or wrong bolt........

But Is the Rattle the reason it was parked up ? .........
Was any major work from your memorey in that area? .........
Is there wear on pulley or woodruff key in and around there? .........

You may need when you have identified the thread/bolt size/pitch to use a thread chaser to clean things up a bit............
If as you say no damage to bolt (sounds lucky) ...........
Maybe it wasn't tight enough and you need to chase out the threads anyway and clean it up  and make sure it's got enough Torque...........

Obviously addressing any wear or slop in woodruff key............
BTW........ MK1 Vehicles are in other section this here is next gen Vans

Thanks.
> But Is the Rattle the reason it was parked up ? .........
No it just stopped being used a few years ago. Then recently my wife told me to either get rid or do something with it. Hence the plan to turn it into a mini-camper
The rattle was noticed first time it was started recently.

>Was any major work from your memorey in that area? .........
not in my ownership but it shows signs the cambelt has been replaced (plus other bodgery round the engine!).

> Is there wear on pulley or woodruff key in and around there? .........
Slight were to the pulley in the key slot plus the slightly odd witness marks shown in the picture. The key inself looks worn and twisted. In fact it looks a little undersized. I don't know if this is normal or it is a (bodged) replacement. I am tempted to make a replacement that is a better fit when I re-assemble.

>You may need when you have identified the thread/bolt size/pitch to use a thread chaser to clean things up a bit............
>If as you say no damage to bolt (sounds lucky) ...........
The removed bolt is M14 x 1.5. I have a suitable tap so can clean the threads with that. I hoped for re-assurance it was the correct bolt/size before doing that though. That said, given this bolt has already been fitted M14x1.5 is the size the threads are now,even if they were not to start with!
No damage to bolt, I am just hoping no damage to the crank either!

> Maybe it wasn't tight enough and you need to chase out the threads anyway and clean it up  and make sure it's got enough Torque...........
That is a good point, I guess if the bolt was not tight it could have damaged the threads in the crank. Although I would have that that would make it loose, not tight.

>BTW........ MK1 Vehicles are in other section this here is next gen Vans
How embarassing! Not sure how I managed to get the wrong section. Is there any way to move a thread? Or is it stuck here now?

Thanks for your comments, definitely more food for though.

vaz2121

Member

From: Glasgow Living:~ SW. Scotland

Registered: 2015-08-31

Posts: 1,311

Re: 2003 Scudo 2.0JTD crank bolt problem?

Having anothe look a your photo of parts there looks to me as if there is some discolouration (my eye sight maybe) on the first 3/4's of the thread on your bolt ...
Could this suggest fits sort of but slightly wrong size and or pitch of bolt....
Getting a new bolt from dealer probably not a problem but sounds like another woodruf key is called for if twisted and under sized  there's also a ring mark around the edge of the raised boss on the pulley .......... Is that a witness mark of movement rattle?...........

.........
A good few yrs ago myself and another....We'd got our hands on 3 ex taxi Vectra C's that had failures of one kind or another all under 100,000 mls nearly...............
Cutting to the chase two of them had crank Bolt pulley failures (Bolt going slack 6-8 weeks after belt change.....one having gone this way twice we knew about) and the belt getting out of whack with odd rattles and effects..........
Being taxi's they'ed done a mile or two in the ensuing couple months ...........

Basiclly they hadn't put enough torque on the bolt which is scarily high but they'd were just rattle gunned it in ..........
But we found the threads wanted chasing in amoung the rebuild .......... it was as if the movement altered the pitch slightly  (We also used New very high tensile bolts {Odd looks from local dealer} from memorey)

OAT

Member

From: Borders/Dales

Registered: 2017-01-03

Posts: 903

Re: 2003 Scudo 2.0JTD crank bolt problem?

Definitely looks like a change to the thread in that bolt.  Could be trick of the light.
With no sign of swarf, it could be that it has been run in and out enough to make a fit.  Trouble is, what size is the inside thread now?  And is there enough metal to re cut at standard size?

Last edited by OAT (2020-08-11 02:59:17)

brman

Member

Registered: 2020-08-10

Posts: 36

Re: 2003 Scudo 2.0JTD crank bolt problem?

you are both right, there is a colour change on the threads. Looking at the crank there is an unthreaded bit for the first inch of so. So it looks like the colour change co-incides with the thread threaded bit of the crank.
There is no sign of any distortion on the bolt threads though so I assumed that the colour was just contamination from the crank theads.

vaz: interesting comments about the vectras. It could be that I have the same problem here which gives me hope that just a clean up of the threads will sort it.
oat: That is my concern, I don't want to recut the thread and then strip it trying to get the torque required. I might have no choice but the take the risk though.

vaz2121

Member

From: Glasgow Living:~ SW. Scotland

Registered: 2015-08-31

Posts: 1,311

Re: 2003 Scudo 2.0JTD crank bolt problem?

I understand what your saying about stripping out thread when re-torqueing
I may be talking out my Ar** Because for the life of me I Don't remember if the Vectra bolts were discoloured they just didn't feel right (maybe we went overboard getting new.... we were advised by a fitter to err onside of caution)..... like you said cross threading and not running in free...........

                                                                                              ............................................................
That discoloured section of bolt makes me wonder was that the level of torque applied to ill fitting thread  or inferior tensile strength to it's origonal bolt if changed or as you say where it matched up into crank thread.......

A decent bit of research is obviously called for and to see if that bolt matches origonal inc tensile strength ................

brman

Member

Registered: 2020-08-10

Posts: 36

Re: 2003 Scudo 2.0JTD crank bolt problem?

Well, I have a new bolt on order so can start by comparing the two. I'll report back

brman

Member

Registered: 2020-08-10

Posts: 36

Re: 2003 Scudo 2.0JTD crank bolt problem?

A follow up on this case anyone else cares

As I had a new bolt I cut a couple of slots in the old one and used it as a chaser. It turns out no damage to the threads, just a lot of gunk (not sure if it was old threadlock or what) that needed cleaning out. Once that was done the new bolt (and pulley) went in fine. Torquing it was interesting, I was aiming for the 70Nm+62degrees but the breaker bar was flexing and I reckon about 50 degrees was as much as I managed before I gave up. It is f**ing tight anyway so I hope it will stay that way