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#1 2020-12-22 23:29:57

woodbine
Member
From: Bristol, UK
Registered: 2018-11-01
Posts: 135

New Clutch Time - Few Of questions

The clutch on my 2004 Scudo 2.0 Jtd,  with 100,000 miles has just started slipping. Thought it was biting a bit high/late recently and felt different. On the motorway today confirmed it when I put my foot down, the revs increased but speed didn't pick up. Damn! Just before Christmas.    sad

I'm getting a trusted garage to renew the clutch.While the box is out, is there anything in there worth replacing as well as a new clutch kit (pressure plate, disc and release bearing? Is it recommended to change the clutch guide tube?

Also, I'm supposing my van will have a dual mass flywheel. At 100,000 miles is it recommended to change it?

I'm hoping to use a LUK Sachs or Valeo kit. Any help or advice appreciated before I book it in.


Fiat Scudo 2004 (54) 2.0 Jtd Dynamic Van

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#2 2020-12-23 11:32:35

vaz2121
Member
From: Glasgow Living:~ SW. Scotland
Registered: 2015-08-31
Posts: 1,073

Re: New Clutch Time - Few Of questions

woodbine wrote:

The clutch on my 2004 Scudo 2.0 Jtd,  with 100,000 miles has just started slipping. Thought it was biting a bit high/late recently and felt different. On the motorway today confirmed it when I put my foot down, the revs increased but speed didn't pick up. Damn! Just before Christmas.    sad

I'm getting a trusted garage to renew the clutch.While the box is out, is there anything in there worth replacing as well as a new clutch kit (pressure plate, disc and release bearing? Is it recommended to change the clutch guide tube?

Also, I'm supposing my van will have a dual mass flywheel. At 100,000 miles is it recommended to change it?

I'm hoping to use a LUK Sachs or Valeo kit. Any help or advice appreciated before I book it in.

I had a LUK clutch kit fitted a couple years ago..........
As the Original started to fall to bits .......No slipping, But enormous amounts of shuddering and shaking as though well out of balance when engaging drive.........
They appear to be the ones to go for in the after market replacement variety ............
I would be happy with any of those brands mentioned ............

My Van is fitted with the DW8/B and I'm fairly sure No DMF as None was metioned...........but the HDI or in your case JTD branded it's quite possible.........
They recon you should get at least two clutches out a DMF before the need to change ............
If it's rattling at any time or during starting  turning off or showing any slop  I'd change it when your in there better to be safe than sorry and have to pull box again.........
I'm told (could be an old wives tale) starting also but especially when switching off "To push clutch pedal fully to floor ........... This gives DMF an easier time............

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#3 2020-12-23 18:26:23

woodbine
Member
From: Bristol, UK
Registered: 2018-11-01
Posts: 135

Re: New Clutch Time - Few Of questions

Thanks for your reply, Vaz.

Apart from the slipping, there's nothing wrong with the operation of the clutch. I'm in two minds over the DMF. Is it possible to remove it and inspect? So maybe possible to get up to another 100,000 miles out of the DMF?


Fiat Scudo 2004 (54) 2.0 Jtd Dynamic Van

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#4 2020-12-23 23:34:33

JohnDragonMan
Member
From: Derby, East Midlands, UK
Registered: 2020-06-02
Posts: 159
Website

Re: New Clutch Time - Few Of questions

hey there. well i did the clutch change on mine using a Valeo kit. oh my the clutch is so nice now. so my van when i changed the clutch had a LUK in it. my van had covered 99k miles and looked to be on its 2nd clutch when i bought it being the LUK that was slipping. maybe the past keepers rode it bad. (i have been told that Valeo is the OEM fitted clutch)
with the LUK clutch, the clutch plate had not failed as it still had lots of "meat on the bone" when it came to friction pad thickness. it was the spring plate that had failed.
if you look in my thread you can see that i changed the flywheel at the same time as mine was cracked. (it did not ring when you hit it, if it was suspended.)

i sadly cant tell you if you have a DMF or old school solid flywheel. the only thing to go on is that my van is a 2005... it may have had a DMF originally before the LUK clutch was fitted.

all i can say is the van feels fine without a DMF. the engine does tend to be a bit "bassy" (low rumble sound.. no vibrations) however while in 4th doing dead on satnav 30mph with the engine speed around 1400rpm. my guess is the DMF would stop this. being a diesel i do like to use the torque more so than horse power... makes the van drive really efficiently.

so to me it also sounds like the spring plate has failed on yours. when i had this van i had to completely change how i used a clutch from other vehicles i had in the past. i would usually leave in gear and hold the clutch down while stationary.. but in the van i now keep it in neutral with my foot off the clutch as much as possible when stationary. i was told this by a taxi driver who drove the E7 eurocab vairiant of our vans.  he reckons you can get almost 200k miles out of one if you use it right!

so one thing i would change if i was going into all that is the oil seal on the engine...  sadly behind the flywheel/DMF. its what.. 15 years old and not as supple as it once was. i bet its weeping a bit. if ever it does let go its a whole box off job again to change... for £15 may as well get it replaced.

yeah i changed most bits inside the bell housing. again 15 years old.. for what they cost i thought may as well have it not leak for another 15 years more. i also recommend changing the gearbox oil too. when the gearbox is off you can get every bit of oil out of it too by tipping it upside down and on its side..  once done it will take dead on 2 litres of oil to fill it. i sadly cant remember the oil spec off hand. it if find it out i will get back to you.

hey and while you have the box off, its a good oppertunity to do some corrosion repairs / pervention!  did it all on mine! (i have even ordered a engine under tray from France to help protect the underside of my van..  can you tell i really like this thing? big_smile )

hope this clears the mist...


- JohnDragonMan
Notice: I have the tendency to void warranties, blow fuses, cause fires, and other fun stuff.
Words of wisdom: Internally rust proof the sills! both skins!!. There's always user serviceable parts inside. "Oh that shouldn't have happened".
My Crazy Mk2 2005 Dispatch Camper Project big_smile

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#5 2021-01-27 00:00:44

woodbine
Member
From: Bristol, UK
Registered: 2018-11-01
Posts: 135

Re: New Clutch Time - Few Of questions

JohnDragonMan wrote:

hey there. well i did the clutch change on mine using a Valeo kit. oh my the clutch is so nice now. so my van when i changed the clutch had a LUK in it. my van had covered 99k miles and looked to be on its 2nd clutch when i bought it being the LUK that was slipping. maybe the past keepers rode it bad. (i have been told that Valeo is the OEM fitted clutch)
with the LUK clutch, the clutch plate had not failed as it still had lots of "meat on the bone" when it came to friction pad thickness. it was the spring plate that had failed.
if you look in my thread you can see that i changed the flywheel at the same time as mine was cracked. (it did not ring when you hit it, if it was suspended.)

i sadly cant tell you if you have a DMF or old school solid flywheel. the only thing to go on is that my van is a 2005... it may have had a DMF originally before the LUK clutch was fitted.

all i can say is the van feels fine without a DMF. the engine does tend to be a bit "bassy" (low rumble sound.. no vibrations) however while in 4th doing dead on satnav 30mph with the engine speed around 1400rpm. my guess is the DMF would stop this. being a diesel i do like to use the torque more so than horse power... makes the van drive really efficiently.

so to me it also sounds like the spring plate has failed on yours. when i had this van i had to completely change how i used a clutch from other vehicles i had in the past. i would usually leave in gear and hold the clutch down while stationary.. but in the van i now keep it in neutral with my foot off the clutch as much as possible when stationary. i was told this by a taxi driver who drove the E7 eurocab vairiant of our vans.  he reckons you can get almost 200k miles out of one if you use it right!

so one thing i would change if i was going into all that is the oil seal on the engine...  sadly behind the flywheel/DMF. its what.. 15 years old and not as supple as it once was. i bet its weeping a bit. if ever it does let go its a whole box off job again to change... for £15 may as well get it replaced.

yeah i changed most bits inside the bell housing. again 15 years old.. for what they cost i thought may as well have it not leak for another 15 years more. i also recommend changing the gearbox oil too. when the gearbox is off you can get every bit of oil out of it too by tipping it upside down and on its side..  once done it will take dead on 2 litres of oil to fill it. i sadly cant remember the oil spec off hand. it if find it out i will get back to you.

hey and while you have the box off, its a good oppertunity to do some corrosion repairs / pervention!  did it all on mine! (i have even ordered a engine under tray from France to help protect the underside of my van..  can you tell i really like this thing? big_smile )

hope this clears the mist...

Hello John. Really sorry for late reply, but had a major pc problem a while back. Gave pc to someone I know and before he fixed it he got diagnosed with the Kung Flu. So I couldn't visit to get my pc back for weeks. Total nightmare.

Anyway, pc all fixed. Suppose there is some irony that a computer tech should get a virus.    smile

Anyway, things have moved on with the van. Had the clutch done yesterday. New Valeo kit and new DMF. Also got them to replace the clutch guide tube and crankshaft oil seal while they were in there.

When I picked up the van, they told me there is wear in gear cables because some gears are a bit hit and miss when engaging. Well that's news to me, because they were fine before the clutch was changed. How can gear selection suddenly become difficult after changing a clutch?

It's only reverse and 1st that are the problem. Most of the time it's really difficult to engage them, the lever won't go fully forward - like something is blocking it.

Anyway, I've done a couple of tests. If when the lever won't go into gear I keep pressure on the lever then turn engine off, it slips easily into gear as soon as engine stops. Also all gears engage easily with engine off.

So looks like the clutch is dragging. Would appreciate your thoughts or those of anyone else on here.

Thanks again and aplolgies for such a late reply. I appreciate your help and advice.


Fiat Scudo 2004 (54) 2.0 Jtd Dynamic Van

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#6 2021-01-27 00:15:10

Casper
Member
From: East Lothian
Registered: 2015-12-20
Posts: 1,786

Re: New Clutch Time - Few Of questions

Put my mask on to post here big_smile Glad you made it to the other side mate

Dono about Valeo as i always use LUK or Borg & Beck. Bugger that the DMF does not last two or three clutch kits though. Probably got it all do do again as i did it all the year before selling my last Convoy and since got another what is at 80 odd K. Last one went at 98k.

Anyway. Wife had a little fiat with cable gear shifts. Hers is was 5th and reverse that was a bugger to get in. Never needed to look at the cables in the Pug/Fiat/Citroen vans but on the car it was a double lock nut adjustment at tee box end to make life a lot easier. Gear stick moved over to left a bit but shifting was a breeze. Might be worth a look.

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#7 2021-01-27 00:16:21

kenbw2
Member
From: Anywhere the van takes me
Registered: 2017-11-26
Posts: 720

Re: New Clutch Time - Few Of questions

woodbine wrote:

Suppose there is some irony that a computer tech should get a virus.    smile

Sounds like he opened the Windows, that's how you let viruses in  tongue


2000 Citroen Dispatch 1.9TD XUD9 Camper Conversion + full time home
1999 Citroen Dispatch 1.9D DW8 Disassembled Camper Conversion
1996 Peugeot 806 1.9TD XUD9 Spare vehicle
1998 Citroen Synergie 1.9TD XUD9 Snapped timing belt

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#8 2021-01-27 00:31:11

Casper
Member
From: East Lothian
Registered: 2015-12-20
Posts: 1,786

Re: New Clutch Time - Few Of questions

Computer geek giving some other geek the computer to fix. Poor show TBH  big_smile

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#9 2021-01-27 13:40:56

woodbine
Member
From: Bristol, UK
Registered: 2018-11-01
Posts: 135

Re: New Clutch Time - Few Of questions

Casper wrote:

Put my mask on to post here big_smile Glad you made it to the other side mate

Dono about Valeo as i always use LUK or Borg & Beck. Bugger that the DMF does not last two or three clutch kits though. Probably got it all do do again as i did it all the year before selling my last Convoy and since got another what is at 80 odd K. Last one went at 98k.

Anyway. Wife had a little fiat with cable gear shifts. Hers is was 5th and reverse that was a bugger to get in. Never needed to look at the cables in the Pug/Fiat/Citroen vans but on the car it was a double lock nut adjustment at tee box end to make life a lot easier. Gear stick moved over to left a bit but shifting was a breeze. Might be worth a look.

Don't blame you about the mask. Maybe government have found another new variant that can get you through the phone cables. Better run anti virus, just in case.  wink

Van going back to garage on Monday. Seem to think it's some air in slave cylinder or pipe connected to it. Going to have a look and start with giving it a good bleed. Will ask them about cable adjustment when I go. Seems to me more of a clutch problem, because all gears are fine when shifting with engine off. Will see, thanks for advice.


Fiat Scudo 2004 (54) 2.0 Jtd Dynamic Van

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#10 2021-01-27 13:42:05

woodbine
Member
From: Bristol, UK
Registered: 2018-11-01
Posts: 135

Re: New Clutch Time - Few Of questions

kenbw2 wrote:
woodbine wrote:

Suppose there is some irony that a computer tech should get a virus.    smile

Sounds like he opened the Windows, that's how you let viruses in  tongue

lol   lol


Fiat Scudo 2004 (54) 2.0 Jtd Dynamic Van

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#11 2021-01-28 03:15:12

JohnDragonMan
Member
From: Derby, East Midlands, UK
Registered: 2020-06-02
Posts: 159
Website

Re: New Clutch Time - Few Of questions

yeah thats tell tale signs of a clutch that is staying engaged. its possibly caused by air in the slave cylinder. i had to bleed mine by having the cylinder out of the gearbox held downwards while i had it pre-filled with brake fluid then while the pipe was dripping plug it all together.
does the pedal seem to sit lower than before? i am not sure if thats anything to go by but it would make sense.


- JohnDragonMan
Notice: I have the tendency to void warranties, blow fuses, cause fires, and other fun stuff.
Words of wisdom: Internally rust proof the sills! both skins!!. There's always user serviceable parts inside. "Oh that shouldn't have happened".
My Crazy Mk2 2005 Dispatch Camper Project big_smile

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#12 2021-01-28 12:56:28

woodbine
Member
From: Bristol, UK
Registered: 2018-11-01
Posts: 135

Re: New Clutch Time - Few Of questions

JohnDragonMan wrote:

yeah thats tell tale signs of a clutch that is staying engaged. its possibly caused by air in the slave cylinder. i had to bleed mine by having the cylinder out of the gearbox held downwards while i had it pre-filled with brake fluid then while the pipe was dripping plug it all together.
does the pedal seem to sit lower than before? i am not sure if thats anything to go by but it would make sense.

Does that mean that these slave cylinders are known to be a pain to bleed? Would they have had to disconnect the pipe to it when removing gearbox? I would have imagined that they just pulled the slave out of the bell housing and tied it up out the way - like you do with a caliper when doing brake pads. Or do they leave the slave in bell housing and just disconnect pipe?

Reverse and first are bad, but other gears feel a little 'notchy' when shifting - mainly 2nd. Got in the habit now of engaging reverse before starting engine.

Not really aware of pedal sitting lower, but I could be wrong. If it wasn't air in the slave, is there anything else likely to cause this problem? Thanks again for your replies and advice, John.


Fiat Scudo 2004 (54) 2.0 Jtd Dynamic Van

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#13 2021-01-28 15:36:25

vaz2121
Member
From: Glasgow Living:~ SW. Scotland
Registered: 2015-08-31
Posts: 1,073

Re: New Clutch Time - Few Of questions

JohnDragonMan wrote:

yeah thats tell tale signs of a clutch that is staying engaged. its possibly caused by air in the slave cylinder. i had to bleed mine by having the cylinder out of the gearbox held downwards while i had it pre-filled with brake fluid then while the pipe was dripping plug it all together.
does the pedal seem to sit lower than before? i am not sure if thats anything to go by but it would make sense.

I never gave it a thought or knew slave cylinder was inside bellhousing.................

Does this mean it's a concentric slave cylinder............
concentric slave cylinder:~ I've only really come across them in GM Vehicles ...............

But believe it's a modern thing with hydraulic clutch operation ..................

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#14 2021-01-29 02:47:07

JohnDragonMan
Member
From: Derby, East Midlands, UK
Registered: 2020-06-02
Posts: 159
Website

Re: New Clutch Time - Few Of questions

thankfully its right on the front of the gearbox.. you have to pull a little retaining fork thingy out and it twists a few degrees like a bayonet light bulb and comes out.. you can remove it with the pipe attached big_smile

honestly, they have put some good design into that making it very easy to service and repair!


- JohnDragonMan
Notice: I have the tendency to void warranties, blow fuses, cause fires, and other fun stuff.
Words of wisdom: Internally rust proof the sills! both skins!!. There's always user serviceable parts inside. "Oh that shouldn't have happened".
My Crazy Mk2 2005 Dispatch Camper Project big_smile

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#15 2021-01-29 21:30:49

woodbine
Member
From: Bristol, UK
Registered: 2018-11-01
Posts: 135

Re: New Clutch Time - Few Of questions

JohnDragonMan wrote:

thankfully its right on the front of the gearbox.. you have to pull a little retaining fork thingy out and it twists a few degrees like a bayonet light bulb and comes out.. you can remove it with the pipe attached big_smile

honestly, they have put some good design into that making it very easy to service and repair!

Thanks again for the info, John. Researching the subject more on the net, does point to air in clutch system. Only other explanation I could find was someone with similar symptoms (not a Fiat) and it turned out to be the new DMF that was out of balance. Changed it twice and in the end threw in the towel and converted to solid flywheel. LUK paid out for the labour and refunded the cost of DMF. Hope it's nothing complicated like that, but I do detect a buzzing vibration that I don't think was there before as the revs rise.

It's going back on Monday, so will report back.


Fiat Scudo 2004 (54) 2.0 Jtd Dynamic Van

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#16 2021-01-29 21:33:16

woodbine
Member
From: Bristol, UK
Registered: 2018-11-01
Posts: 135

Re: New Clutch Time - Few Of questions

vaz2121 wrote:
JohnDragonMan wrote:

yeah thats tell tale signs of a clutch that is staying engaged. its possibly caused by air in the slave cylinder. i had to bleed mine by having the cylinder out of the gearbox held downwards while i had it pre-filled with brake fluid then while the pipe was dripping plug it all together.
does the pedal seem to sit lower than before? i am not sure if thats anything to go by but it would make sense.

I never gave it a thought or knew slave cylinder was inside bellhousing.................

Does this mean it's a concentric slave cylinder............
concentric slave cylinder:~ I've only really come across them in GM Vehicles ...............

But believe it's a modern thing with hydraulic clutch operation ..................

Not sure about newer versions, but the original shape vans don't have concentric. It's the traditional style slave (can we still call them that - imagine the howls of outrage from lefties   yikes   ) on the outside. Sounds a right pain to change one of those concentrics.

Last edited by woodbine (2021-01-29 21:33:44)


Fiat Scudo 2004 (54) 2.0 Jtd Dynamic Van

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#17 2021-01-29 23:37:45

Casper
Member
From: East Lothian
Registered: 2015-12-20
Posts: 1,786

Re: New Clutch Time - Few Of questions

JohnDragonMan wrote:

thankfully its right on the front of the gearbox.. you have to pull a little retaining fork thingy out and it twists a few degrees like a bayonet light bulb and comes out.. you can remove it with the pipe attached big_smile

honestly, they have put some good design into that making it very easy to service and repair!

That looks the same as what Ford has in the Mk6 + 7 transits.

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