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#1 2021-02-06 20:51:16

kenbw2
Member
From: Anywhere the van takes me
Registered: 2017-11-26
Posts: 720

My electrics think the engine is running before I start it up

I have a minor but niggling issue where my electrics run as if the engine is running on the second click of turning the ignition key (the one you leave it on for the glow plug pre-warm)

I've just checked all the fuses with the key in the second position, and all are receiving voltage. I'd expect some of them to only be energised with the engine running - blower motor, rear demister etc

None of these were issues on my old white van, and actually this van didn't used to have these problems.

The problem this causes me is, I use the blower motor fuse as a signal to my split charge relay. With it being energised before the engine starts, the leisure battery is brought in to help start the engine, which obviously isn't what I want.

Is there a relay or something that might need replacing?

Last edited by kenbw2 (2021-02-06 20:54:20)


2000 Citroen Dispatch 1.9TD XUD9 Camper Conversion + full time home
1999 Citroen Dispatch 1.9D DW8 Disassembled Camper Conversion
1996 Peugeot 806 1.9TD XUD9 Spare vehicle
1998 Citroen Synergie 1.9TD XUD9 Snapped timing belt

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#2 2021-02-06 22:35:01

Casper
Member
From: East Lothian
Registered: 2015-12-20
Posts: 1,786

Re: My electrics think the engine is running before I start it up

Not got a clue to your main issue but how have you got the split charge wired to let it use the leisure battery assist the start battery? This is how i do mine what is a one way system. If i need a boost then its get the jump lead out. Only need the live to add the two together to reach.

Split-Charge-Three-Bats.jpg

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#3 2021-02-06 22:43:44

kenbw2
Member
From: Anywhere the van takes me
Registered: 2017-11-26
Posts: 720

Re: My electrics think the engine is running before I start it up

Same as your setup, but I don't use an automatic voltage sensing one because it doesn't work with a LiFePO4 battery, so I take a signal from a fuse which only has power when the engine is running

The blower motor used to be that, but it's powered too early which obviously creates a problem


2000 Citroen Dispatch 1.9TD XUD9 Camper Conversion + full time home
1999 Citroen Dispatch 1.9D DW8 Disassembled Camper Conversion
1996 Peugeot 806 1.9TD XUD9 Spare vehicle
1998 Citroen Synergie 1.9TD XUD9 Snapped timing belt

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#4 2021-02-06 22:49:41

Casper
Member
From: East Lothian
Registered: 2015-12-20
Posts: 1,786

Re: My electrics think the engine is running before I start it up

I see. Never knew that about them battery's. Every day a school day they say

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#5 2021-02-06 23:04:23

tee_cee
Member
Registered: 2016-03-18
Posts: 368

Re: My electrics think the engine is running before I start it up

On my 2002 1.9D there was an "engine running" relay, which was fed from the the ECU via F6

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#6 2021-02-06 23:06:23

kenbw2
Member
From: Anywhere the van takes me
Registered: 2017-11-26
Posts: 720

Re: My electrics think the engine is running before I start it up

tee_cee wrote:

On my 2002 1.9D there was an "engine running" relay, which was fed from the the ECU via F6

That sounds interesting, any idea where the relay was?

Mine doesn't have an ECU so I wonder how it would know

Edit: Just checked and F5 is unused for me. The blower is F6 for what it's worth

Last edited by kenbw2 (2021-02-06 23:19:19)


2000 Citroen Dispatch 1.9TD XUD9 Camper Conversion + full time home
1999 Citroen Dispatch 1.9D DW8 Disassembled Camper Conversion
1996 Peugeot 806 1.9TD XUD9 Spare vehicle
1998 Citroen Synergie 1.9TD XUD9 Snapped timing belt

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#7 2021-02-07 02:17:52

JohnDragonMan
Member
From: Derby, East Midlands, UK
Registered: 2020-06-02
Posts: 159
Website

Re: My electrics think the engine is running before I start it up

it can be dificult to do on a non ECU driven engine..  or easy.. depending on your electronics skills.. 

for me i just wired up an ignition live, that ran through a relay. the relay was switched by the oil pressure light. when the igntion was off, it had no igntion live so nothing worked.. when the ignition was on but the engine was not running running the light held the relay open. when the engine is running the relay closes as the light goes out and runs power to the split charge relay.

ive been a bit.. well me.. and went out and got a battery to battery charger. it ups the 12v to 24v..(for now). eventually ill be doing my crazy leisure system.. one day


- JohnDragonMan
Notice: I have the tendency to void warranties, blow fuses, cause fires, and other fun stuff.
Words of wisdom: Internally rust proof the sills! both skins!!. There's always user serviceable parts inside. "Oh that shouldn't have happened".
My Crazy Mk2 2005 Dispatch Camper Project big_smile

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#8 2021-02-07 11:15:03

tee_cee
Member
Registered: 2016-03-18
Posts: 368

Re: My electrics think the engine is running before I start it up

I ended up with a similar problem with my 2015 Expert - the alternator only charges the battery when you lift your foot off the accelerator, so voltage sensitive relay will not work. Also I could not find an engine running feed.
In the end I connected the ignition feed to a little AT41 timer. I have it set to close the charging relay after 20 seconds.

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#9 2021-02-08 02:08:30

kenbw2
Member
From: Anywhere the van takes me
Registered: 2017-11-26
Posts: 720

Re: My electrics think the engine is running before I start it up

So in an interesting development, this afternoon it once operated as I'd expect - key in the second position, dash lights all lit, and crucially the blowers weren't on

Started the engine, turned it off and now it's back to its prior state.

There's definitely a difference in the battery light. It's *always* half illuminated, with the key in any position and with the engine running.

This must be a dodgy relay somewhere. Does anyone have a map of the relays in the glove compartment?

So here's how the dash looked this afternoon when the blowers were NOT running

6vCksbT.jpg

And how it looks now in its problem state:

AL8joPS.jpg


2000 Citroen Dispatch 1.9TD XUD9 Camper Conversion + full time home
1999 Citroen Dispatch 1.9D DW8 Disassembled Camper Conversion
1996 Peugeot 806 1.9TD XUD9 Spare vehicle
1998 Citroen Synergie 1.9TD XUD9 Snapped timing belt

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#10 2021-02-09 10:53:45

tee_cee
Member
Registered: 2016-03-18
Posts: 368

Re: My electrics think the engine is running before I start it up

I have access to the circuit diagrams, but I need to know the engine, and probably the RPO number on the door.
here are the engine choices

sedre.png

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#11 2021-02-09 13:51:39

kenbw2
Member
From: Anywhere the van takes me
Registered: 2017-11-26
Posts: 720

Re: My electrics think the engine is running before I start it up

Ooh nice, mine's the Turbo Diesel XUD9TE - the one at the bottom

Automatic, no ABS

I'm guessing this is the RPO number: 08506U9

Last edited by kenbw2 (2021-02-09 13:59:36)


2000 Citroen Dispatch 1.9TD XUD9 Camper Conversion + full time home
1999 Citroen Dispatch 1.9D DW8 Disassembled Camper Conversion
1996 Peugeot 806 1.9TD XUD9 Spare vehicle
1998 Citroen Synergie 1.9TD XUD9 Snapped timing belt

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#12 2021-02-09 13:52:47

tee_cee
Member
Registered: 2016-03-18
Posts: 368

Re: My electrics think the engine is running before I start it up

I think that the fact it is intermittent is a good sign.

Here's my theory.

When the ignition is turned to your battery voltage is switched through the dash light and on to the alternator. This supplies a small current required to start the alternator generating, effectively grounding dash light - so it lights up. As you turn over the engine the alternator starts generating and when the output voltage rises, so the same voltage should be on both sides of the dash lamp - so the lamp goes out.
This connection from the lamp to alternator also goes to the "engine running" relay - which when energised, feeds your blower motor etc.
So if this relay switches on when the engine is not running, it means that there must be a bad connection at the alternator, just enough volage to switch the relay and just enough current to get the alternator started.

So I'd check the small wire connected to the alternator.

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#13 2021-02-09 14:03:13

kenbw2
Member
From: Anywhere the van takes me
Registered: 2017-11-26
Posts: 720

Re: My electrics think the engine is running before I start it up

Hmm, that does sound feasible indeed

I did actually try completely disconnecting the alternator - removed all the connections - and saw no change in behaviour. The battery light was still half illluminated, the blowers still ran etc. Although interestingly it did trigger it to only once work as I'd like it to, with the battery light on full, blowers off etc. I heard a relay click and then it was back to business as usual.

Would you be able to share a screenshot of what you saw?

Another potential explanation is the relay's dicky, getting stuck closed. I could swap out that relay as a trial and error attempt

Last edited by kenbw2 (2021-02-09 14:23:57)


2000 Citroen Dispatch 1.9TD XUD9 Camper Conversion + full time home
1999 Citroen Dispatch 1.9D DW8 Disassembled Camper Conversion
1996 Peugeot 806 1.9TD XUD9 Spare vehicle
1998 Citroen Synergie 1.9TD XUD9 Snapped timing belt

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#14 2021-02-09 15:13:10

tee_cee
Member
Registered: 2016-03-18
Posts: 368

Re: My electrics think the engine is running before I start it up

This is what I got, however it's seems like the engine running  relay (1030) feeds everything via F5.

start.png

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#15 2021-02-09 15:28:33

tee_cee
Member
Registered: 2016-03-18
Posts: 368

Re: My electrics think the engine is running before I start it up

Hmm, that does sound feasible indeed

I did actually try completely disconnecting the alternator - removed all the connections - and saw no change in behaviour. The battery light was still half illluminated, the blowers still ran etc. Although interestingly it did trigger it to only once work as I'd like it to, with the battery light on full, blowers off etc. I heard a relay click and then it was back to business as usual.

Would you be able to share a screenshot of what you saw?

Another potential explanation is the relay's dicky, getting stuck closed. I could swap out that relay as a trial and error attempt

If the relay was stuck it would have no effect on the battery light.
I see that the lamp/alternator/relay wire is broken out to pin 9 on the diagnostic connector C0001. Not sure where it is though, but I'll keep digging


c0001.png

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#16 2021-02-10 10:50:40

tee_cee
Member
Registered: 2016-03-18
Posts: 368

Re: My electrics think the engine is running before I start it up

Just thinking about it, what voltage to you get when the engine is running?

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#17 2021-02-10 13:42:32

kenbw2
Member
From: Anywhere the van takes me
Registered: 2017-11-26
Posts: 720

Re: My electrics think the engine is running before I start it up

The alternator charges as normal, got my leisure battery up to 14.4v last night

I've traced what I think you mean - blue is signal, red is main feed

KwhHoNo.png

Last edited by kenbw2 (2021-02-10 13:46:20)


2000 Citroen Dispatch 1.9TD XUD9 Camper Conversion + full time home
1999 Citroen Dispatch 1.9D DW8 Disassembled Camper Conversion
1996 Peugeot 806 1.9TD XUD9 Spare vehicle
1998 Citroen Synergie 1.9TD XUD9 Snapped timing belt

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#18 2021-02-10 15:59:37

tee_cee
Member
Registered: 2016-03-18
Posts: 368

Re: My electrics think the engine is running before I start it up

Yes, sorry maybe I should have done that for you.
At least the alternator is working OK, which would indicate that there isn't a problem with the alternator earth.
The voltage at 1017 on the alternator should be the more or less the same as the voltage at the battery. Since the lamp is partially on, it means that it is lower than the battery.
It could work the other way if the battery lamp had a bad battery connection and was lower than the alternator - but in this situation the relay would not be on when the engine was not running.

Can you measure the voltage straight on the alternator terminal?
if it's not the same as the battery when the engine is running, then there is a fault with the middle three diodes in the diagram.
If it is the same as the battery voltage, then the fault is with the alternator wire 1071 before the junction where it splits off to the relay, lamp and test connector.

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#19 2021-02-12 02:04:17

kenbw2
Member
From: Anywhere the van takes me
Registered: 2017-11-26
Posts: 720

Re: My electrics think the engine is running before I start it up

Just had a bit of a play according to your suggestions and hit upon the problem!

I was messing around taking measurements at various points. Engine running, signal wire on the alternator was 14.4v, so was the battery. Engine off, F28 was at 12.4V, blowers going

Did some measurements with the engine off and blowers running, and nudged the signal wire. Suddenly a relay clicked, and the blowers stopped.

Oh. There's a loose connection not between the ring terminal and the alternator - that was fine. It was the connection between the wire and the ring terminal. New ring crimped on, and it's all back to how it should be!

Explains why taking the signal wire off made no difference - it was already effectively disconnected.

I still don't follow why no signal wire = the relay clicks on, but hey it's fixed!

Last edited by kenbw2 (2021-02-12 02:17:04)


2000 Citroen Dispatch 1.9TD XUD9 Camper Conversion + full time home
1999 Citroen Dispatch 1.9D DW8 Disassembled Camper Conversion
1996 Peugeot 806 1.9TD XUD9 Spare vehicle
1998 Citroen Synergie 1.9TD XUD9 Snapped timing belt

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#20 2021-02-12 08:30:04

tee_cee
Member
Registered: 2016-03-18
Posts: 368

Re: My electrics think the engine is running before I start it up

When the engine is not running the ring terminal provides a route to ground. So the lamp has 12v one side and close to 0v the other - so it lights up.
At this time the relay coil has 0v on both sides - so it is not energised.
If there is no connection to the ring terminal current will flow through the relay from the stop lamp and energise it, and turn the stop lamp on.
I think the interesting bit is that in theory the alternator can't start without the initial current from the stop lamp.  It's possible that there is enough residual magnetism left in the rotor to start it up.
Glad you are running again and don't need a new alternator.

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#21 2021-02-12 16:10:57

JohnDragonMan
Member
From: Derby, East Midlands, UK
Registered: 2020-06-02
Posts: 159
Website

Re: My electrics think the engine is running before I start it up

here is how i would do it..




oil-pressure-light-split-charge-relay-controller.png


- JohnDragonMan
Notice: I have the tendency to void warranties, blow fuses, cause fires, and other fun stuff.
Words of wisdom: Internally rust proof the sills! both skins!!. There's always user serviceable parts inside. "Oh that shouldn't have happened".
My Crazy Mk2 2005 Dispatch Camper Project big_smile

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#22 2021-02-13 00:59:03

kenbw2
Member
From: Anywhere the van takes me
Registered: 2017-11-26
Posts: 720

Re: My electrics think the engine is running before I start it up

JohnDragonMan wrote:

here is how i would do it..

Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm back to working state again now, very pleased and I've fixed the underlying problem


2000 Citroen Dispatch 1.9TD XUD9 Camper Conversion + full time home
1999 Citroen Dispatch 1.9D DW8 Disassembled Camper Conversion
1996 Peugeot 806 1.9TD XUD9 Spare vehicle
1998 Citroen Synergie 1.9TD XUD9 Snapped timing belt

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#23 2021-02-13 01:00:52

kenbw2
Member
From: Anywhere the van takes me
Registered: 2017-11-26
Posts: 720

Re: My electrics think the engine is running before I start it up

tee_cee wrote:

I think the interesting bit is that in theory the alternator can't start without the initial current from the stop lamp.  It's possible that there is enough residual magnetism left in the rotor to start it up.

Ahh, interestingly before I always had to "wake up" my alternator by revving it to 2k revs. Once running it charged just fine.

Since fixing the ring terminal I no longer have to do that

Last edited by kenbw2 (2021-02-13 01:02:04)


2000 Citroen Dispatch 1.9TD XUD9 Camper Conversion + full time home
1999 Citroen Dispatch 1.9D DW8 Disassembled Camper Conversion
1996 Peugeot 806 1.9TD XUD9 Spare vehicle
1998 Citroen Synergie 1.9TD XUD9 Snapped timing belt

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