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#1 2020-01-04 03:07:31

tee_cee
Member
Registered: 2016-03-18
Posts: 563

Smoking exhaust

Looking for some advice on what to do next with the van  (DW10CD)

When I got it there were soot particles appearing on the back doors. I statrted checking the dpf regeneration cycles and it was typically every 150 miles. There was signs of white or grey smoke and a smell of diesel at startup but this would go after the engine warmed up.
After a few months I started to see clouds of black smoke when accelerating. Local mechanic identified a cracked core in the dpf which was replaced with an after market dpf.
Regens were happening every 30 miles, until it started to emit black smoke - at this point the regen interval went back to 150 miles. The turbo and inlet manifold (lots of carbon deposits for 50k miles) were replaced and the ecu was updated.  Finally the dpf has been replaced with a peugeot original.

So regens are happening every 50 miles now. During all this time there have been no fault codes thrown. I have run all the lexia actuator tests and the only fault is failure to open the egr bypass valve - which I think incorrect as I can see the vacuum solenoid being pulled open.

Whats most concerning is that there are no signs that the van is sick - it runs really well no fault codes no smoke from the exhaust.

So now I am thinking its time to go to the dealer, but I am worried that with lack of fault codes they will start replacing the other major parts, probably starting with the egr.

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#2 2020-01-04 03:40:28

vaz2121
Member
From: Glasgow Living:~ SW. Scotland
Registered: 2015-08-31
Posts: 1,311

Re: Smoking exhaust

Such frequent regens suggest to me lots of soot in exhaust and the ECU detecting the DPF clogging  and having to regen so frequently to clean up its act..........
I'd assume you've checked and changed air filter if required.............

This is a simplistic view on a technical system...........
Is there any airflow restriction to the engines breathing or is it a case of over fueling for the given volume of air (Rolling Coal) ?

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#3 2020-01-04 10:25:38

tee_cee
Member
Registered: 2016-03-18
Posts: 563

Re: Smoking exhaust

Yes air filter was replaced.
When the dpf was broken soot was gathering in the exhaust and being blown out at higher revs - difficult to tell what was going on. Even more so now that the dpf is collecting it all.
Two different garages mentioned how powerful the engine was - hence the ecu  upgrade to eliminate the possibility of a remap.

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#4 2020-01-14 13:19:18

vaz2121
Member
From: Glasgow Living:~ SW. Scotland
Registered: 2015-08-31
Posts: 1,311

Re: Smoking exhaust

This could be something or nothing........

Got me thinking..........
We've just had an issue on a petrol motor though (faulty cold start sensor)...........

At first I thought MAF (Dirty... faulty Whatever).......
As it should adjust fueling acording to temp/air O2 density ETC........
Hence my first reaction........

Turned out faulty cold start/temp sensor thingy not quite fully turning "choke" off and when up to temp Ran like a bag of Sh** and troublesome hot starts (just like over chokeing in the old days But not enough apparently to flag a fault ).............


I wonder could this be a possibility your experiencing.......
It could answer the get up and go plus the frequent required regens if it's getting a little extra cold start fueling and timing .........

Or it could be talking out my Ar** again

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#5 2020-01-15 09:55:53

tee_cee
Member
Registered: 2016-03-18
Posts: 563

Re: Smoking exhaust

Thanks for that. I monitored the regens on a long run, so the engine was fully warmed up and still clogging up. Judging by the amount of carbon on the inlet manifold I think that this has been a long running issue, which only became apparent when the DPF cracked.
Anyway I've reluctantly decided to take it to the dealers who in theory should have the resources to analyse the system.
At least if they struggle with lack of visible faults/performance, I should be able to escalate with Peugeot.

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#6 2020-12-15 17:59:01

tee_cee
Member
Registered: 2016-03-18
Posts: 563

Re: Smoking exhaust

Updating the results with the dealership, probably across several posts!!

I had booked the van in for 11th Feb - I spoke directly to the tech and service manager, advising them that the DPF was broken, then replaced and was regenerating every 50 miles, with no fault codes.
So they ran basic diag, drove the van for 10 miles, and ran the diag again - and declared "no fault found".

The average distance between regens is calculated using the last 10 regens, however since the van had only done 9 it was reading about 80 miles. This is bad enough, but the garage suggested that it "wasn't unheard off".
They point blank refused to advise a "normal" figure, but agreed that if  the average was 50 then there "might" be a problem. I knew that one more regen and the average would come down to 50 miles, so I said I would bring it back after the next regen.

So, on 2nd March after 50 miles - nothing. After 62 miles "risk of dpf blocking" P1490 light comes on, followed by "dpf blocked" P1477  23 miles later. This was bad news because having both codes mean that the regen cannot be forced, and clearly the van can not be driven.

So while I'm thinking about what to do next, I went back and looked at the diag results again. The printout from the second diag session clearly showed that the regen was actually in progress - and was only 40 miles after the previous one. How he did not spot this I don't know. I suspect that the failure of the regen at this time led to the the blocked dpf 60 miles later.

So I decided to escalate with Peugeot UK, and after a few exchanges, and one month later, they're only suggestion was "go to a dealer"

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#7 2020-12-19 12:26:42

tee_cee
Member
Registered: 2016-03-18
Posts: 563

Re: Smoking exhaust

Next I tried to do a forced regen. I cleared the faults, and started the process. Straight away the "dpf blocked" code P1477 came back, the process would stop and the message was "replace the exhaust". With Peugeot offering no assistance, and with the DPF effectively broken, I had no choice but to go back the same dealer again.

The dealer agreed to take the van back, mid June, and I waited for the verdict. Six weeks later, I contacted them asking for an update, to be told that the fault was because the DPF was not a Peugeot part - and needed to be replaced. They thought is was not genuine because it did not have Peugeot stamped all over it.  I managed to pull the invoice that detailed the part number that was fitted, and if it was faulty then it should still be under Peugeot warranty.
I also pointed out that

The original DPF failed in less than 50k miles with a cracked core
The after market DPF failed after 100 miles
The new "OEM" DPF regens every 50 miles is blocked after 500 miles.
I also suggested it might be an idea to take the exhaust off, to see what was coming out of the engine.

So they changed their mind, and actually did some work.
Along with doing a forced regen (I really don't know how they did this) they had a look at the additive tank. This confused me a bit because you could see that regens were completing OK, because the exhaust differential pressure would drop as expected after the regen. So even though the level of the tank was right for the mileage, they managed to squeeze a litre of fluid into the tank! But at least they were doing something.
The next step was to drive the van to see what was happening.

Again it was 6 weeks before I got an update that confirmed that the DPF was not faulty, and the Peugeot thought that it might be the injectors, without any data to support such a theory. So the next step would be to check the air circuit, run with the exhaust off to see how ‘sooty’ it is and then run tests on the injectors.
A week later they confirmed that the air circuit was OK, but could not give me a forecast for the rest of the work. After complaining to senior management, they agreed to test the injectors in one weeks time.
So they pulled the injectors and proceeded to photograph them with a mobile phone, and then put them back in. They thought that the jets looked enlarged and suggested I come to garage to look at the photos! You could not make it up, the jets are 0.12mm.
I requested that they get them properly tested to see if they were within spec. Two weeks later I got the results.
It was very clear that all 4 injectors were over fueling by at least 10-20% - funny enough it was tested by the Delphi agent that I had visited a year before, who told me that there was nothing wrong with the injectors, and that I would be wasting my money getting them tested.

At this point the van has been with the dealer for 18 weeks.

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#8 2020-12-20 08:42:42

vaz2121
Member
From: Glasgow Living:~ SW. Scotland
Registered: 2015-08-31
Posts: 1,311

Re: Smoking exhaust

Not wishing to muddy waters here............
It's all very well increasing the diesel input to engine to gain extra power but you must increase oxygen content to burn extra fueling or it's extra smoke.......
Said over fueling 10 to 20 % = a tenth to one fifth extra of only fuel that's fairly signifificant.................

It might not be in tractor pulling extra fueling black smoke territory (Advanced timing and over fueling it's why tractor pulling engines sound funny at  lower revs trying to build engine power and Rpm) but extra fuel and more than cold start extra fuel without timing I'd guess..........


I'd not been adversed to have a 10mm spanner on me to add a little extra fuel on the pump rack on mechanical turbo diesels in my yoof


But there you have it .........
On good old-fashioned mechanical Diesels if you put turbo injectors in a non turbo engine the spring rate in injector was higher So popped off later at a higher given pressure and as a consequence incorrect timing and fueling =black smoke.......
Simillar resultbut heavier level of black smoke is putting a turbo pump on a non turbo diesel engine or having a failed non working turbo = black smoke because of type of varying rising rate of on demand fueling within pump......
{You can use a non turbo diesel pump on a turbo engine but in order for it to cope it would need to be set at max fueling for peak demand and in consequence of this Theory is it's over fueling all the time in lower lesser demand useage because it's a very linear rising rate pump rather than the variable fuel demand rates of turbo boost (That's a simplistic view of engine needs)}

So are we looking at faulty software..inferior data somehow received by ECU  or Ecu it's self for whatever giving out inferior incorrect information to fuel system.......

This is a prime example of "Technology is a wonderful thing" But a Diesel need 3 things to run, But put a Computor in charge of it to make it more efficient than just adding a turbo (Efficiency: This is why all the latest petrols have small engines and turbo's) you now need 103 things to make a Diesel run.........

This here is a somewhat defeatest view but with the advent of So called zero emission electric vehicles (That take 1.5 times the energy pollutants to produce it than conventional vehicles and I read on average a conventional car takes ten times the enegy to produce than it uses in it's life span) manufacturers will never put the time or development money into solving this Diesel DPF issue or current petrol issues for that matter when  "Full Electric is seen to be the future in 9 years effectively" rather than a Hybred or Hydrogen cell...............
Again another Prime example of manufacturers to meet demands and PROFIT is VW diesel gate and many years ago for Land Rover to meet Califonia emissions and sell approved Vehicles there they fitted an "Air Pump to the engine that fed air into the exhaust to dilute the gases enough to meet emission standards"
VW were the only one that effectively got caught, How do you get more given power and cleaner emissions and alegedly way less fuel "Energy" used .............
Don't get me wrong we need to do somthing but "you get Nothing for Nothing"...............

The numbers don't add up nor cost figures.........
Car replacement alone even if 2 million of us pay the extra premium for EV's every year for 10 years we still fall wayway short on replacements for fossil fuel cars and not including the norm 3 year churn of replacements and also that's before delivering goods and services of the commercial fleet demand...........
And anything conventional bought new today from now on has virtually no resale value in 3--4--5 years

Sorry I'm going off on a tangent here ...............
One thing before I go.....
not to mention motorcycles........
who thought that horses would be So popular and cost such a premium and especially racing them...........
When 100 yrs ago  they were under a similar replacement threat...........

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#9 2020-12-21 12:35:38

tee_cee
Member
Registered: 2016-03-18
Posts: 563

Re: Smoking exhaust

Fuel pressure is enormous, up to 1800bar, and injector opening measured in fractions of milliseconds. In addition there are small pre and post injections. The manufacturing process is not precise enough to meet these requirements, with typical fuel delivery tolerance of 10%. So each injector is profiled to get a timing offset to bring that tolerance down to 1%. This is the code that is passed to the ECU.
I had already checked the variance across the injector timing, and they were within 2% across the 4 cylinders. The ECU is able to measure RPM as each cylinder fires, so I expected that an overfueling injector would be detected. So if all 4 injectors are overfueling nothing would be picked up. Though I'm surprised that that the O2 sensor  does not seem to monitor during regular driving.
Anyway this would lead me to speculate as to why the jets have worn so badly and prematurely. When I asked the Delphi agent, he suggested fuel contamination.
I suspect that the the previous owner had easy access to red diesel - and recently there were reports coming out from farmers with fuel filters being blocked by high  particle levels in bio diesel.

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#10 2020-12-25 12:36:04

vaz2121
Member
From: Glasgow Living:~ SW. Scotland
Registered: 2015-08-31
Posts: 1,311

Re: Smoking exhaust

Fuel pressure in all common rail Diesels is ridiculously high ...............
Old mechanical diesel injection was dangerous enough to do you damage...........
It''l be a good few years ago now (No longer with us) I had an acquaintance and he managed to get diesel  because of the pressure it's under  into his body .......

But what I was going to Say was the 3rd or 4th gen Mondeo...........
It transpired that the stupidly high pressure had caused the diesel to wear the inner bore of the pipe and cause the metal detritus to acumulate at a turn or a joint and restict flow when you booted it for an overtake or the likes and it would go into limp mode...........
You could build speed to say 100 MPH fine but give it a boot full and No deal.............
It took forever to find but New pipe and No more issues .............

Again not wishing to muddy waters ............. is it possible.........
Is this what's with alledged enlargement of needle supply holes in your injectors .................
Are they needing replaced or can they be refurbed with a nozzle...............
If this is the case and restrict flow back to Norm? ..................


Is there such a thing as a High flow DPF ................
Like you can get a high flow Cat.........
Or would that defeat purpose...........

And BTW Merry Christmas ..................

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#11 2020-12-26 12:10:28

tee_cee
Member
Registered: 2016-03-18
Posts: 563

Re: Smoking exhaust

Merry Christmas also, and hopefully 2021 will work out for you.

My decision to go with the dealer was based on getting Peugeot to take responsibility. As opposed to independents, who can simply give up. I was prepared to wait and indeed pay for the van to ultimately be fixed.
New delphi injectors R00101DP cost about £250 each. Eyewatering when you have to replace all 4.
So buying the SAME injectors from Peugeot and they come in at around £700 each. That's simply an astonishing markup for an item that they don't even stock. So even the refurbished parts which are usually about £170, Peugeot do for about £480. So I requested that Peugeot contribute to the overall diagnostic & repair bill, and as a goodwill gesture they agreed to knock off 25%, which was about half of the markup on the injectors.
After giving the go ahead it took a total of almost 6 week to replace the injectors. This was due to not being able to get the injectors clamps from Peugeot. I suggested that they use the Ford equivalent, which were readily available, but they refused to do so. In the end they suggested that the old clamps were refitted, which I agreed to.  So again key parts less that 5 years old, and no delivery forecast - it's a commercial vehicle ffs. I raised the issue with Peugeot, but still no response.

When I went to pick the van up, it was a simple here's the bill and your keys. The van had been with them for 170 days, with an extra 280 miles on the clock and looked like it had been parked under a tree for 6 months. Oh, and the service light had been on for 250 miles. After some interrogation I also established that the oil had not been changed after the forced regen. No thoughts on the cause, and the only diagnosis I ever got was "suspect injectors".

Anyway I have had the van back for 4 weeks now, and have been monitoring the regens, and all seems to be ok.

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#12 2020-12-26 14:11:20

vaz2121
Member
From: Glasgow Living:~ SW. Scotland
Registered: 2015-08-31
Posts: 1,311

Re: Smoking exhaust

This treatment you received sounds absolutely Outrageous From a Main Dealer...................
It May be a Commercial Vehicle and Not worthy to some "a second glance" ...........
Apart from you picking up the tab on a converted van.................
Some of us {a lot more than you'd think} rely on these "Commercial Vehicles" to earn a crust..............

Everyones at it ............
All over you like Cheap perfume/a Rash and what you'll have in return when your considering a purchase............
Buy really all interest is Give us your Money and "F off"..............

I could tell a trio + of main dealer  bad attitude and avoidance of warranty or responsibility towards their Brands............
{One involving a Brand New Premium Volvo Unit that was IIRC £120,000ish at the time}

Loyalty to a Brand and irrespective of whatever is said" Customers" is a thing of the Past...........

I'm Obviously Old school as I feel a lot was expected of me for repeat business in order to survive...........
This Country inc Successive Governments..................
Is taking Short term quick today Profits and not building any infrastructure for the Future........

Hence why I try my best to not use Main dealers...............
which in-turn feeds and just keeps the Merry-go-round going...............

Sorry I'm off on one again............

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