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#1 2019-06-23 19:40:10

Tiree
Administrator
From: Galloway
Registered: 2013-09-20
Posts: 331

Hot-starting issue ...

Evenin folks ..

A couple of times in the last two weeks, my van has refused to start.

Both time it's been after a bit of a run, so the engine is warm. But after coming back to the van after five minutes or so - it just won't start.

On both occasions, waited for another five mins or so and tried again - started fine.

Battery and starter are dandy-o - it turns over strongly - just doesn't fire.

So that sounds like a fuelling issue? Filter was changed 6 months ago [will check it tomorrow though] .. and why does it start again fine after five minutes?

Thoughts welcome!


2006 Citroen Dispatch 2.0HDi bought in July 2013 - Partial camper conversion ........

DSC_0360-1.jpg

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#2 2019-06-23 20:02:06

kenbw2
Administrator
From: Preston
Registered: 2017-11-26
Posts: 1,265

Re: Hot-starting issue ...

Anything on the diagnostics port?

Does the HDi have an equivalent of cracking one of the injectors so you can check if fuel is being delivered? Remove the leak off pipes maybe?


2000 Citroen Dispatch 1.9TD XUD9 Camper Conversion
1999 Citroen Dispatch 1.9D DW8 Disassembled Camper Conversion
1996 Peugeot 806 1.9TD XUD9 Spare vehicle
1998 Citroen Synergie 1.9TD XUD9 Snapped timing belt

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#3 2019-06-23 22:50:17

Ricko
Member
From: SW Lancs
Registered: 2017-01-18
Posts: 334

Re: Hot-starting issue ...

After the experience of my Hdi refusing to start I believe that all faults are electrical these days!


2004 Citroen Dispatch 2.0 Hdi

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#4 2019-06-23 23:11:42

Tiree
Administrator
From: Galloway
Registered: 2013-09-20
Posts: 331

Re: Hot-starting issue ...

Ta for the replies smile

kenbw2 wrote:

Anything on the diagnostics port?

Does the HDi have an equivalent of cracking one of the injectors so you can check if fuel is being delivered? Remove the leak off pipes maybe?

Will try to get it hooked up to diagnostics tomorrow - no idea about injectors or leak-off pipes I'm afraid - any guidance appreciated!

Ricko wrote:

After the experience of my Hdi refusing to start I believe that all faults are electrical these days!

What was the fault, Ricko?


2006 Citroen Dispatch 2.0HDi bought in July 2013 - Partial camper conversion ........

DSC_0360-1.jpg

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#5 2019-06-23 23:26:57

vaz2121
Member
From: Glasgow Living:~ SW. Scotland
Registered: 2015-08-31
Posts: 1,311

Re: Hot-starting issue ...

My HDI experiences were a major PITA .................
One of those symptoms was very much like as you put forward here
Have the Injectors tested to see if one is weak and allowing fuel leakage back to return when cranking over therefore not achieving line pressure and failed start
Your description is very much how my symptoms started out and then progressed (seemed fairly quickly) to being a lottery whether it would even start.......

Testing can be done in situ
Otherwise I'm with Ricko and his electrical theory.....................

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#6 2019-06-24 00:17:48

Casper
Member
From: East Lothian
Registered: 2015-12-20
Posts: 2,114

Re: Hot-starting issue ...

I had a motor years ago that would not start when hot. Turned out to be the starter motor for some reason.

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#7 2019-06-25 06:04:51

Ricko
Member
From: SW Lancs
Registered: 2017-01-18
Posts: 334

Re: Hot-starting issue ...

Tiree, my fault was traced to a bad connection to the main board, it had been arcing and subsequently damaged a main relay.


2004 Citroen Dispatch 2.0 Hdi

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#8 2019-06-25 08:55:42

vaz2121
Member
From: Glasgow Living:~ SW. Scotland
Registered: 2015-08-31
Posts: 1,311

Re: Hot-starting issue ...

Casper wrote:

I had a motor years ago that would not start when hot. Turned out to be the starter motor for some reason.

I've suffered that problem also Casper.....

Changed the starter ....... behaved just the same ........... still no crank until it stood for 15 ... 20 mins.......... IIRC

Nothing wrong with starter But a heat sheild had been removed and not replaced for some reason......... Exhaust ran very close to starter and after a bit of time Heat soak rendered starter usless until it had cooled down enough ....................

Not what's going on here I don't think................

But you never know

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#9 2019-07-23 21:53:51

Tiree
Administrator
From: Galloway
Registered: 2013-09-20
Posts: 331

Re: Hot-starting issue ...

Alrighty all ..

Time for an update on this although not really much further forward.

Van had been fine for a few weeks and my efforts to get it hooked up to OBDII data had failed .. but then in the last week or so I've had two hot-start failures.

Both times the van turns over just fine but won't start.

And both times it started again after a wait of 15-20 minutes.

Both times the weather was over 20 degrees.

So I tried again to get my ELM 327 to connect to the ECU and after about an hour I got it working.

Glory be.

So the code which seems to be permanently occurring [will instantly re-appear if cleared] is:

P0230 - Fuel pump relay - circuit malfunction

Great info on that here

Now, that sounds like it could well be related to my problem, yeah?

The only thing that makes me unsure is that I'm pretty certain that the last time I got a thing hooked up to the OBDII [around 4 years ago] - I saw the same code.

And this issue has only just started happening.

So .. coincidence that they seem related? Or is the starting issue just the latest symptom of the [worsening?] problem causing P0230.

Ultimately I reckon this will need to go to the garage I suspect but thoughts welcome as ever!


2006 Citroen Dispatch 2.0HDi bought in July 2013 - Partial camper conversion ........

DSC_0360-1.jpg

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#10 2019-07-23 22:12:46

Casper
Member
From: East Lothian
Registered: 2015-12-20
Posts: 2,114

Re: Hot-starting issue ...

How about no air getting in tank. Next time it happens open cap and see how you go. P0230 could just be showing as its struggling due to no fuel. Is the breather in the cap on these vans?

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#11 2019-07-23 23:51:55

vaz2121
Member
From: Glasgow Living:~ SW. Scotland
Registered: 2015-08-31
Posts: 1,311

Re: Hot-starting issue ...

Tiree wrote:

Alrighty all ..

Time for an update on this although not really much further forward.

Van had been fine for a few weeks and my efforts to get it hooked up to OBDII data had failed .. but then in the last week or so I've had two hot-start failures.

Both times the van turns over just fine but won't start.

And both times it started again after a wait of 15-20 minutes.

Both times the weather was over 20 degrees.

So I tried again to get my ELM 327 to connect to the ECU and after about an hour I got it working.

Glory be.

So the code which seems to be permanently occurring [will instantly re-appear if cleared] is:

P0230 - Fuel pump relay - circuit malfunction

Great info on that here



Now, that sounds like it could well be related to my problem, yeah?

The only thing that makes me unsure is that I'm pretty certain that the last time I got a thing hooked up to the OBDII [around 4 years ago] - I saw the same code.

And this issue has only just started happening.

So .. coincidence that they seem related? Or is the starting issue just the latest symptom of the [worsening?] problem causing P0230.

Ultimately I reckon this will need to go to the garage I suspect but thoughts welcome as ever!



Had A quick read through this :   https://www.peugeotforums.com/forums/ma … ist-22378/     

He's had similar symptoms A p0230 code on an HDI and It seems only when the ambiant temp is up

Unfortunately there doesn't appear to have a solution posted and I'm confused as to whither on high or low pressure circuit

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#12 2019-07-24 11:09:08

Tiree
Administrator
From: Galloway
Registered: 2013-09-20
Posts: 331

Re: Hot-starting issue ...

Casper wrote:

How about no air getting in tank. Next time it happens open cap and see how you go. P0230 could just be showing as its struggling due to no fuel. Is the breather in the cap on these vans?

Hey Casper - definitely worth a look - no idea where the breather is so will try to find out!

vaz2121 wrote:

Had A quick read through this :   https://www.peugeotforums.com/forums/ma … ist-22378/     

He's had similar symptoms A p0230 code on an HDI and It seems only when the ambiant temp is up

Unfortunately there doesn't appear to have a solution posted and I'm confused as to whither on high or low pressure circuit

Thanks for that Vaz - yep I agree it's a bit confusing which it refers to.

My situation is slightly different in that there's no MIL light and it doesn't hit limp mode - the code is always there and the only other [maybe connected symptom] is this hot-start problem.

I haven't noticed if the click -> hum of the lift pump kicking in is present or missing when the problem occurs so that's something for me to listen out for next time it happens.


2006 Citroen Dispatch 2.0HDi bought in July 2013 - Partial camper conversion ........

DSC_0360-1.jpg

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#13 2019-07-24 17:20:44

Tiree
Administrator
From: Galloway
Registered: 2013-09-20
Posts: 331

Re: Hot-starting issue ...

Interesting thing happened today - no issues with starting the van - but at one point when I did start it, the Engine Coolant Temp gauge maxed out, then went to zero, then maxed out, then zero .. all within a few seconds.

I turned off, then started again and all returned to normal. Anyone seen that happen before?

I've been reading about this issue a lot and many people report that a faulty ECT sensor can cause the hot-starting problem.

So that's a cheap replacement probably worth just trying out.

Now, does anyone know where the ECT sensor is on the HDI??!!


2006 Citroen Dispatch 2.0HDi bought in July 2013 - Partial camper conversion ........

DSC_0360-1.jpg

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#14 2019-07-24 21:58:45

Tiree
Administrator
From: Galloway
Registered: 2013-09-20
Posts: 331

Re: Hot-starting issue ...

So this is how my temp gauge now behaves when the engine's up to speed:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ck30uo … kAC5u/view

When cold - it behaves normally - so again this points to possibly being the culprit of the hot-start issue too.

Hopefully will get a new sensor tomorrow and I've located the old one on the engine.

Will report back!


2006 Citroen Dispatch 2.0HDi bought in July 2013 - Partial camper conversion ........

DSC_0360-1.jpg

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#15 2019-07-24 22:06:50

OAT
Member
From: Borders/Dales
Registered: 2017-01-03
Posts: 903

Re: Hot-starting issue ...

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#16 2019-07-25 21:55:36

Tiree
Administrator
From: Galloway
Registered: 2013-09-20
Posts: 331

Re: Hot-starting issue ...

Dammit.

2+2=5

New Coolant Temp Sensor fitted [took 5 mins - even for me!] - and the temp gauge is still bonkers.

Possibly even worse.

Had a further hot-start issue as well so that's me back to the drawing board.

I think I now have to assume that the two issues are unrelated ... despite their similarities.

Of course, tomorrow I'm off on a week long trip including a couple of Calmac ferries so it'll be squeaky-bum time for me in the queues to get on / off!

As ever - thoughts welcome!


2006 Citroen Dispatch 2.0HDi bought in July 2013 - Partial camper conversion ........

DSC_0360-1.jpg

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#17 2019-08-04 21:18:50

Tiree
Administrator
From: Galloway
Registered: 2013-09-20
Posts: 331

Re: Hot-starting issue ...

Delighted to report a trouble-free 9 days away to Arran with no starting issues ...

I think I found the issue but first let's clear up a couple of red herrings:

Tiree wrote:

So the code which seems to be permanently occurring [will instantly re-appear if cleared] is:

P0230 - Fuel pump relay - circuit malfunction

As I mentioned before - this P0230 code appeared years ago and I think I only managed to properly clear it just before I left - it's not returned and I don't think it's directly related to the hot-starting issue.

Tiree wrote:

So this is how my temp gauge now behaves when the engine's up to speed:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ck30uo … kAC5u/view

When cold - it behaves normally - so again this points to possibly being the culprit of the hot-start issue too.

Hopefully will get a new sensor tomorrow and I've located the old one on the engine.

Will report back!

As per previous post - I replaced the Coolant Temp Sensor and still saw this problem. However, it turns out [I'm fairly certain] that this mad temp gauge behaviour actually only occurs when my cheap copy ELM327 OBD II thing is plugged in.

So let's ignore that too.

I'd previously ordered a replacement fuel pump relay and on the day I was heading off to Arran it arrived.

I wrestled with the existing one, had to break the daft plastic screw holding it to the wing and eventually managed to get it off. It's a weird design that means you need to pull the red tab away from the relay as you pull it out of the connector and, similarly, push the red tab back in as you connect it all back up.

As it turns out - the new one I bought didn't fit - despite having the same part number [240109] - same shape but with extra tabs and a slightly different elec diagram.

But, on removing the old one - I could see significant corrosion on the terminals. Got a wire brush and some contact cleaner spray in about the thing and then put it all back together.

Tried to start the van, no joy - usual thing - turns over strongly but won't go. However at this point the engine was cold and I could not hear the lift pump activating.

Pulled the relay out again, cleaned it again and bashed everything back together as firmly as I could.

Van started and off I went - not really very optimistic that I'd last the trip without major issues.

Yet here we are.

9 glorious days on Arran later and no hint of trouble.

Will keep an eye on things but something I did seems to have helped!

Arran is amazing by the way!


2006 Citroen Dispatch 2.0HDi bought in July 2013 - Partial camper conversion ........

DSC_0360-1.jpg

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#18 2019-08-06 16:31:39

OAT
Member
From: Borders/Dales
Registered: 2017-01-03
Posts: 903

Re: Hot-starting issue ...

Tiree wrote:

Arran is amazing by the way!

Glad it held up for the trip.  Bet it was fingers crossed each morning.

How much for the ferry?

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#19 2019-08-06 17:05:15

Tiree
Administrator
From: Galloway
Registered: 2013-09-20
Posts: 331

Re: Hot-starting issue ...

I wasn't really too worried on the whole - it always seemed to start eventually - it was just in the queue to get on / off the ferry where I'd have needed a tow! That feeling of relief when it fired up though!

Arran [Ardrossan <<-->> Brodick] ferry for me & the van was £39.90 return - which I think is brilliant value.


2006 Citroen Dispatch 2.0HDi bought in July 2013 - Partial camper conversion ........

DSC_0360-1.jpg

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#20 2019-08-14 10:15:07

Tiree
Administrator
From: Galloway
Registered: 2013-09-20
Posts: 331

Re: Hot-starting issue ...

Tiree wrote:

Delighted to report a trouble-free 9 days away to Arran with no starting issues ...

OK - looks like I just got lucky on my Arran trip!

Since returning home I've had three engine cut-outs - engine light on [code P0230 again] - and van wouldn't start for five minutes or so. Then off we went again as if nothing had happened.

What I have confirmed now is that when the van won't start, the lift pump is not kicking in when the ignition is turned to ON. Presumably, it's also switching off under driving conditions to cause the cut-outs.

So ..... [I think!] that must leave us looking at the fuel management relay, the in-tank low pressure fuel pump or some wiring issue between the two. At 175k I guess any of those could be possible.

I've got a replacement fuel relay right here [the correct one this time! - part# 9629945980 - £10 via ebay] so that's getting swapped today and will see how we go.

So many similarities to Pabblo's ongoing issue and we've both [hopefully] narrowed it down to the relay / lift pump .. fingers crossed we both get a resolution!


2006 Citroen Dispatch 2.0HDi bought in July 2013 - Partial camper conversion ........

DSC_0360-1.jpg

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#21 2019-08-19 17:18:13

Tiree
Administrator
From: Galloway
Registered: 2013-09-20
Posts: 331

Re: Hot-starting issue ...

Tiree wrote:

I've got a replacement fuel relay right here .. so that's getting swapped today and will see how we go.

OK .. so it's not the relay!  mad

All was good for first few runs but on Saturday I had a hot-start failure after a short trip. Started just moments later but think that's enough to rule out the relay.

I reckon that leaves us with the in-tank lift pump itself, or wiring issues. No idea what I'm doing on either count so I think it's time to pass it on to my garage and see what they say about it.


2006 Citroen Dispatch 2.0HDi bought in July 2013 - Partial camper conversion ........

DSC_0360-1.jpg

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#22 2019-08-20 11:47:37

k_wyndham_t
Member
Registered: 2018-06-01
Posts: 103

Re: Hot-starting issue ...

You need to get a meter across the wiring for the pump when its bad ideally as close to pump as possible and see if its a break down in the cable or a faulty pump.
The looms on these vans are not great so I think it could be either but when its not starting if you dont see 12v across the pump connections it will confirm its the wiring.

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#23 2019-08-20 11:59:15

Tiree
Administrator
From: Galloway
Registered: 2013-09-20
Posts: 331

Re: Hot-starting issue ...

k_wyndham_t wrote:

You need to get a meter across the wiring for the pump when its bad ideally as close to pump as possible and see if its a break down in the cable or a faulty pump.
The looms on these vans are not great so I think it could be either but when its not starting if you dont see 12v across the pump connections it will confirm its the wiring.

OK good shout :-) Think I understand!

The biggest problem is that this never happens when it's sitting here in the yard at home. It happens out and about and even then, chances are the next time I turn the key it will work.

I'll see if I can find the pump connections first and if so I'll see if I can go for a spin and then replicate the issues at home.

Thinking about it - I guess this could also be a wiring issue before the relay couldn't it? I know that I don't hear the lift pump when the engine fails to start - but I couldn't say for sure if the relay is firing or not. Something else to check!

Thanks again!


2006 Citroen Dispatch 2.0HDi bought in July 2013 - Partial camper conversion ........

DSC_0360-1.jpg

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#24 2019-08-20 15:47:00

k_wyndham_t
Member
Registered: 2018-06-01
Posts: 103

Re: Hot-starting issue ...

The biggest problem is that this never happens when it's sitting here in the yard at home. It happens out and about and even then, chances are the next time I turn the key it will work.

You could try running a couple of wires from the pump to the inside of the van, connect your meter to them, and drive around like that till next time it goes wrong, doesnt need to take any current so some speaker/bell wire would do.

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#25 2019-08-20 16:59:58

Casper
Member
From: East Lothian
Registered: 2015-12-20
Posts: 2,114

Re: Hot-starting issue ...

One of these with long wires to pump. You can watch what is happening rather than jump for the meter.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Digital-LED- … OSwvQdcz~f-

Last edited by Casper (2019-08-20 17:00:14)

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